Marcel Vs Hakon. Modded Game without AV. Allied Thread

[MarcelJV]

Hakon and I were part of the discussion on the inbalance of the current AV and we have agreed to try his modification, which is based on the pre-release notes for the next patch. To this end I thought it might be a good idea to show the progress of this game in a AAR format. I see Hakon has beat me to the punch and setup his thread first. I hope he has covered the changes as I forgot to get screen shots of my first turn.

There are some major changes to the game and I will review the ones that affect the allies directly first.

Heavy Air Units - Durability changed to 3 and evasion reduced to 5. I used to like these guys as they were hard to kill, I still feel they have good use so we will be using them, assuming the game goes long enough.

Heavy Fleet. - Air Attack was changed to 3. Well I still like these guys even with the reduced defense against the air, having said that I am not building any that are not on the production path all ready as they are supply hogs.

World standards. Armour Evasion and Tactical Bomber Land attack changed to 7. Makes it harder to get these up to high levels. Having said that for armour I intend to up the soviet number as high as I can get it as I find they are critical to good success.

Axis Changes

Heavy Air Units: Evasion for Japan set to 5. This appears to be the only unit wrongly set in the axis side.

Ok. Do I have a plan, well not really.[:(]

Soviet Union: Built some supplies, 5 tanks, added 6 research to infantry evasion, infantry attack and armour evasion. I have left the front line factories without builds and used them for research or supply building. I did forget to move supplies toward China, next turn. My long term goal, assuming I am attacked is to setup a defense centered on Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov. I have used this before but only against the computer AI, so I expect to get it ripped apart by Hakon, but I have to start some where. I do not believe in building Militia as the Soviets as there have no counter attacking ability.

China:
Well I have never played china so I have no idea what to do. I have pulled back my coastal units on the assumption that they are better alive then dead, on the other had a vigorous defense could force the japanese to spend supply, which he did already by using his carriers to bring more air power to china, that is 4 carriers at 5 supply each 20 supply, yes I like it. I may make some counter attacks but with almost no supply or build points it maybe very hard to do so. If he does go after the Soviets and has not wiped me out then I will start a very agressive push in to South east asia and to the coast.

Western Allies:
I intend to defend Suez as best as I can and to this end I have moved most of the Autralian troops and air to Suez, to do this redeploy the transports to west of Australia and join them to the ones by India, you have to move one south from Indian Ocean to complete the link. I have added in Indian units to cover palistine and Syria with malitia, but this is just to keep him from getting them for free. I did retreat my fleet to Egypt, but I think this may have been a mistake, it did cost 4 supply leaving me with 6 in Suez. It might have been better to make him fight to use the Eastern Med. Allot of this game is based on having and using supplies. His move to the central med is not without supply expenditure as the 3 heavy fleets cost 5 each and the 3 lights cost 3 each. If you move more than one sea zone you use extra supply over the first 1 point. His subs are also in the Cental Med.

Atlantic: No transports taken out. This did surprise me a little as any dead transport is a good transport from the German point of view. But I do agree with retreating to France and working the transports over next turn. To that end I have moved my transport to skirt greenland and enter UK via scotland. I have removed the transports to Gibralter, which I may regret next turn, and from Western France. This setup still lets me get the resources I need but forces any sub looking to do damage to remain at sea. It also reduces the effect of air power on the transportation system. It does make it harder to move units and supplies around, so I may revise this deployment. I have will defend England as best I can, but I may have compromised by changes already by retreating the fleet from Gibralter one sea zone to the west and not bringing it back to the UK. This did limit supply use though. I hope to defend England with Fighters and infantry and artillery, so if I see him building lots of fighters I can expect to have to fight hard for the UK. If not then I am ahead in fighters which is a good thing.

Research: This is the strength of the allies, and a problem. You have to decide what to concentrate on, so I have gone to improving my fighters in speed, evasion, air attack and sub attack. Ok, you say why sub attack, well they start out just as bad as everyone and if I build lots and have at least a 2 speed they can be of use and it may surprise him. This may not work but you have to try new things. I have decided to up the sub attack of my light fleets, and my CAG air units and Heavy bombers. Heavy bombers are also to get their evasion back up. Infantry gets evasion and attack. Artillery get evasion, and Heavy Fleet gets evasion as well. This is more of a preperation for Japan, but if he tries a invasion of the UK and I get this up one level it will help in the combats. Air Attack for Heavy fleets is also an options to increase.

Well that is it for now. I promise screen shots next turn. Including changes in Siberia.

[MarcelJV]

Ok I have the turn back but have not done my move, laptop keeps crashing, but I did manage to extract this screen shot of armour research. One thing I missed in the setup was that the German armour has a 6 evasion,[:)] which I thought started at 7 normally, I could have that wrong. This is good news for the Soviets who as you can see are busy researching theirs from 7 to 8, of course the Germans still have the advantage as the 8 attack is reduced to 7 (x3.5) 24.5 avg vs my 7 x 3 21 defense, so I need to get to 8 quickly or a surprise 40 attack will hurt.

[MarcelJV]

I have completed my Summer 40 turn.

Soviet Union: Built more supply and research points. My aim is to get my armour ahead of the Germans, but I need to balance that desire against building units. Put research into infantry and armour and started research on fighter air attack. Built 4 artillery, 1 AA, 1 Infantry.

Here is a shot of the Siberia with the setup changes.

[MarcelJV]

China: I am still not sure about how to handle china. His air attacks took out some units, which is no good. Russia is moving supplies to China, well 10 at least. I have hold up in one spot more or less, but this maybe my undoing.
Lets hope he uses up lots of supply. So long as he does not do a ground attack I get to keep my supply but I supect he will so Lets get that Russian supply to me.

Here is the situation in China.

[MarcelJV]

Western Allies: Well I forgot to get a snap shot of the total forces from last turn, so I am not sure how many units he built, but I did get one from this turn. I need to keep an eye on how many fighters and bombers he builds as that is a sure sign as to whether an Invasion of England is in play. Also research of 2 speed fighters is a good sign.

I did mess up my naval deployment in the atlantic, but thanks to may northern supply route he was not able to sink any transports. I left my fleet west of Gibralter with out supply and had to move a bunch of transports around to get it supply and move it back to it's starting spot. I built up supplies in Suez and Gibralter. I built 4 fighters, 3 AA, one in England, 1 in Scotland, and One in India. I just occurred to me that i made a big mistake with moving the fleet back to being next to Gibralter as he has 5 subs in France and could sink a fare number of ships. I did take Ethiopia, but is cost me 1 militia.

Here is the atlantic supply route at the start of the turn. This leaves the Germans with no easy hit and run targets. I just need to add two transports off of the east coast to supply the fleet and one with the fleet.

[MarcelJV]

For those that might not know the India Ocean supply route to get units from Australia to North Africa her it is. I only just figured this out a few days ago.

[MarcelJV]

Well it is obvious to me I am in way over my head. I made big blunders, rookie mistakes on the first turn and I am paying for them big time.

Russia, so far no major blunder, but we are not at war yet. More research and building of Armour.

China: My first turn use of supply and then not building any and running out last turn has given japan the time to air attack my units into death. It will be a very long time until they are ready for action again. I fear for Russia.

Western Allies: Well I am sure I am not the first to lose both Suez and Gibralter on the same turn but I may be the first to lose them both by the 3rd turn. I forgot to move fighters to Gibralter, mostly because I had to send supplies to my isolated fleet. Then my retreat on turn one from the eastern Med, ment I could not see what was in Tobruk and missed the 3 armour waiting there. A couple of air attacks on Gibralter followed by an invasion and gone one port, next a major attack in suez, my 1 infantry and 6 militia with one fighter for air support were gone in not time.

Well I am up against it now. Kudos to Hakon for building transports in the med, I am sure I will see them next to England some time soon. Not sure where to go from here.

Here is the picture of Europe.

[CharonJr]

Sure that he did build a transport in the Med ? Italy has 4 at the beginning and considering the number of fleets I am able to see, he could have pulled it off with those 4 fleets.

And no, you are not the first one to lose both Gibraltar and Suez on turn 3, I took them in PBEM by turn 3 at least once

CharonJr

[MarcelJV]

Thanks CharonJr. I see by comparing the force counts from the last few turns that you are correct. My not moving any fighters into Gibralter contributed to its fall. I am not sure I could have done much about Suez without striping England, which may have been a fine thing to do, but I was not comfortabe with that approach. I obivously need more play time at the Allies before I have a good idea of what is and is not possible.

Big naval battle of the coast of Iberia. I think I may have come out ahead as I only lost one Light ship and he lost a heavy ship. Mostly everything else was damaged. My carrier survived which has forced me to move a transport to provide supply to get it back to England, well North of England to join the fleet there.

Russia: More research into tanks which is just as well as he did the same as me and has upped his tanks by one in evasion and attack. I have upped evasion and have not finished attack. I did up the infantry in both, but as I do not have to many of them I think this was a complete waste of research. It occures to me that there is no way my infantry is going to hurt his tanks but may do some damage to his infantry. So I was better off putting the research into armour attack and fighter air attack and AAA air attack.

China: well I finally have supply but as I have no troops it does not seem like it matters much. Rule of thumb build supply on the first turn as China.

Wester Allies: I have consolidated what is left of my fleet in the Atlantic north of Scotland. I have good fighter defence of England so I do not expect any sort of attack on England in 41. He has not reason to as the Soviets are ripe for the taking from both ends. I expect an attack from Germany and Japan on Russia this turn. Japan has 5 speed heavy bombers now. I have prepared for a sub offensive that looks like it may not come with 2dice bombers (heavy and Naval) and light ships. If want to help the Soviets in any way I will have to build units and somehow find a what to hit something vital. I am building Heavy Bombers and hope that they can do some industrial damage.

I await the Soviet Slaughter that is about to come.

[MarcelJV]

Well I gained a one turn repreve, but it will not matter much.

Soviet Union: The Germans are poised in the West and the Japanese in the East to sandwich the Soviet Union. We concentrated research into armour and built more armour and supplies. This next turn is going to hurt big time. Looks like he is out to take Leningrad and then activate the fins for Murmansk. Given that I forgot to build AAA in Leningrad there is little I can do about it. Actually I do not think there is any thing that can really be done if the Germans want Leningrad.

China: Not much to say what we built got bombed. We have next to nothing left. If it were not for the rule that US enters the war if Japan enters non coastal provinces and attacks the Soviet Union, we would be over run.

Western Allies: Big battle to start soon over Persia, I hope to enact some revenge as it looks like most of the Germans are on the Soviet Border. I tried a bombing raid and got one resource for two damaged bombers, should have waited a turn or bombed western france and possible reduced the garrision there. Continued research and built more units includeing armour and transports.

Here is the situation in Europe on the Easter Front.

[MikeB]

I am surprised Gibraltrar can be captured via amphib invasion.
Going through Spain...Gibraltrar is toast.

Typically, i find the allied carrier outside gibraltrar is keen to sink an italian transport on turn 1. It is then all downhill from then for the Italians.

Mike B

[MarcelJV]

ORIGINAL: MikeB

I am surprised Gibraltrar can be captured via amphib invasion.
Going through Spain...Gibraltrar is toast.

Typically, i find the allied carrier outside gibraltrar is keen to sink an italian transport on turn 1. It is then all downhill from then for the Italians.

Mike B

I did not beef up the garrison at all during the first 3 turns. [:(] So a few bombers, 3 heavy and one tac and I was missing all 3 units[:@], which made the invasion a free be. I have worked out, for my re match, how to get 2 then 3 fighters in there[:)]. I would agree with the carrier toasting a transport, but there were none to toast until Fall 41, and by my turn there was no Gibralter. The only good news was in Winter we did an exchange of units in a naval combat where he lost a heavy and me a light permanently the rest were damaged.

[MarcelJV]

Well the end is getting very near.[&o]

Soviet Union: Well the wonder garrison in the east did me no good. They all died to a man, would have been a little better if I remembered to put supply with them.[:o] The only bright spot is that I still hold Leningrad, well for this turn at least.[;)] Remember to put supply in with any units that are going to fight.

China: Hopeless.

Western Allies: Well I have a great big fighter force and no one to fight. I did build 4 heavy bombers and uped the evasion to 6 so I maybe able to do more damage this coming turn. But I fear it will be to little to late. I did take Palastine, for fun. He will take it back but he does have to spend a supply to do it.

Here is the Eastern Front from both ends. Ouch.

[MarcelJV]

Well not looking so good, oh you can't tell I forgot to get screen shots[:@] well believe me.

Soviet Union: Not much from the Germans as they made two big stacks getting ready for the winter defend turn. The japanese did a nice move to take out a factor with bombing and then a para drop, but they did not bring enough men as we did a valiant counter attack and took our factory back, we also killed the darn paratrooper, now for the German paratrooper.

China: Ya we have one unit left. Hey what can I say first time playing them.[:o]

Western Allies: Well big battle in the Red see, 2 damaged heavies for me and 1 dead light. I did damage one heavy of his. Sunk a German transport next to England, not sure what that was about though. Took back Southern Iran(Persia). Tried to bomb some units in France and damaged a AAA and killed a militia for two damaged Heavies. Not really worth it but you have to take some shots. Next time I move a bunch of Heavy ships next door as well to participate in the attack. Oh, well we will try in Spring when our bombers are back from the repair shop.

I will fight this out to the bitter end but even then I am sure I will lose. He needs to take every factory in Russia and China to get to 85 and then needs it to be 44 so I have some time to work with.

[MarcelJV]

Winter 42:

Soviet Union: The germans made a couple of air attacks and that was it. Sitting tight through winter. The japanese have pushed farther into Russia and it does not look good. Trying to figure out how I am going to defend both fronts. I think the critical area really is the Japanese, who would be having a harder time of it if China had not been wipped out. More research in to Tanks and artillery.

China: Well I have nothing and when I get something it gets bombed before I can use it.

Western Allies: Not much has happened other then a push into the Middle East to get back the two resources, at this point everyone not in the hands of the Axis is a bonus, although he had not repaired it. He does not need the resources as his factories do not use more resources then he gets at this point, although with x3 it might be really close now. Given that I have moved two carriers around africa to deal with the nasty subs. I hope to catch some with my carrier planes. The US going to x2 production has helped research and production of transports, which I will need if I think I am going to invade and help the soviets, although I thing by Spring 43, there will not be any Soviets to help. No bombing this turn as I am rebuilding the Bomber force and upgrading the fighters to support a longer range offensive from the UK. With Japan so far into Russia India is at risk of invasion through Persia soon, so we may see the Japanese attack the allies before Wi43, although if I were the Axis I would wait and make sure the Soviets have nothing left, then take the rest of China and hit DEI. My only hope of preventing AV based on 85 production is to strike back in 43 hard with all I have with the Western Allies. I will work around the perimeter, but I may make a stab at Japan proper. Well this might be a bit early to talk about lets see what happens.

I promise screen shots of the much reduced Soviets next turn.

[MarcelJV]

Spring 1942:

Soviet Union: Not as bad a turn as I thought it would be. A determined German thrust through Rostov into Grozny saw some nice German casualties. This did cut the 6 resources form the Cacasus off so it was hard blow to the Soviet Union. The Japanese continue the slow advance taking out the Central Urals and the factory there.[:@]
We did mount a good counter attack into Grozny that eliminated 1 German Armour and damaged another, although we did take 3 damaged of our own. The militia followed up the attack and forces the Germans to retreat. This allowed the 6 resources to be used again. We built troops and supplies.

China: Nothing to say.

Western Allies: Our carriers in the south of Africa found the 5 submarines and attacked with CAGs. We failed to damage a single sub, so we maintained our blocking position off of the coast of South Africa. An Air strike at West Germany damaged 3 rail lines and 1 resource. The US provided a ton of research as we are desprite to have the light ships get to 3 sub attack. Our hope is that continued bombing will keep the Germans from reaching AV.

Here is the world at the end of the turn.

[MarcelJV]

Battle of Rostov.

[MarcelJV]

Summer 42. Things could be worse but I am not sure how.

Soviet Union: Well we fell into a trap by the Axis. It would seem they wanted me to take back Grozny so that the Japanese could advance on their turn, believing that the tanks would prevent the move and as the Germans could not get there it would then take another turn. Well from my take the taking of Grozny allowed me to produce 12 points worth of items, and remaining there would have only allowed me 2 more factory builds assuming I had the resources, which I am sure I would not have had. So everything in the south of the Soviet Unions is now in Axis hands. We built our two units worth in Moscow.

China: Ya, we are still in the game. I did punt the japanese out of an empty Soviet province.

Western Allies: The situation in Persia is comming to a head now that the Germans have access from both directions. I have reinforced persia. The carriers have moved to the mouth of the Red Sea. Not sure why he retreated as my units only had 2 dice attacks on subs, they now have 3 so he should run. Air Force in England continues to recover numbers. Continued research in to Heavy Bomber evasion. I noticed that the latest patch does not reduce heavy bomber (allied) to 4 as was the case in this game, but starts it at 5, but does reduce the durability. Either way it looks like a long haul to make the bombers work as the Germans have 16 AAA units already.

I have a screen shot but forgot to paste it in to paint before I turn off the computer so I do not have one this time.

[MarcelJV]

Well it was quite obvious from the last turn that my goose is cocked and I have thrown in the towel.[&o] Although I have asked for a rematch, though at this point I do not know if we will do a AAR. But let this one be a lesson to all how give the allies a go, know and play the advanced supply rules with no 'area' or 'auto' supply on.

I have now done some more games with the supply settings at this level and feel I am ready to the challenge, may not make a big difference.[:D]

I made allot of bad moves, and certianly was guilty of playing to passive.[:-] I also had great unfounded fear of having the UK invaded. As a result I gave up the initiative and never had a chance to get it back. I have now come to the conclusion that if the Axis want Cairo and the middle east it is theirs and you really have no choice as the Western Allies.[:(] You do have a number of options if the Axis do not secure the central Med on the first turn, but if they do and move forces into Africa then the writing is on the wall.[:@] I think the best move is to retreat to Ethiopia and India and wait to build up forces for the return attack. Save the Eastern Med fleet so you can block escape from the Red Sea. The forces you save will be worth allot later in the game, but if they die, and they will, you will spend much time rebuilding them.

As for the Western Med, my initial move to pull back was ill conceived as it wasted supply and then left the fleet out of supply[:o]. I would have been better off moving in to the Western Med and occupying Sardinia and reinforceing it will a tac bomber and a fighter. This will make it harder for an attack on Gibralter, that does not involve the occupation of Spain.[:D] The Axis will need to move air assets to the Med to kick you out, which means that the UK is less threatened.[8D] You also have the option to attack the Central Med and slow or stop the conquest of Cairo. This does require the keeping of the Eastern Med fleet in the Eastern Med, which does expose it to attack, but gives you the option to use it in Summer 40 to attack the Central Med. Watch out for air units in Tobruk as they can attack your fleet in the Eastern Med as it moves to attack the Central Med.

Malta is of little to no use, unless you place some air units on the island. The only assets you have that can fly there are the Heavy Bomber, everything else will require a transport or more land connected to the central med.[:@] If you have air assets in there then you can affect the fighting quality of enemy naval units when they leave the central med.[:D] You also get a shot at units being transported to Africa, so this maybe a very good move.[8D] There is not much else to do with the Heavy Bomber in the North Sea, unless you get a chace at a undefended convoy in the Baltic, not likely against a good Axis player.[:@] I have come to the conclusion that some well placed CAG units on Malta can also punish enemy shipping, but this does require some fighter support. Also consider leaving CAGs in Scotland and England to snipe at passing ships, they are better than Heavy Air or Tac at this. You will need to build them of course.[;)]

Soviet Union: This just proves to me that I need to work on my setup and build pattern, which I have done. I would cover the strategy here but I am guessing that Hakon will now read my thread so lets not give it away. I will update this thread if it works in my next game.

China: Is there any strategy other than run to the hills. [&:] I have tried a number of things and they all seem to have way to may chinese casualties for my liking. Pulling back to Chunking does give the Japanese the option to take Changsa for little opposition and doing so will mean the increase in production as well as limiting Japans option verses the Soviets, unless they are ready for the US to enter at the same time. So not sure what to do, maybe I need to be more aggressive.[:D]

I had fun and learned allot about the game. Hope that you gained something, besides sore sides from laughter at my play.[;)]