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Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 11:46 pm
by TOCarroll
The upcoming patch sounds great, but I am unclear on 2 issues.
1) Does the patch somehow adderss the supposed imbalance caused by the axis double-teaming Russia?
2) IMO, The Axis best chance at winning is for Germany to grab Spain, Gibraltar, (also Norway & Sweden), and then hit Russia in 1942 from both west and south. When the gobble up the Cacacsus, Japan attacks and it is easy to get 70 PP. This is addressed in on Mod. Anything in the patch?
RE: Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 12:55 am
by Joel Billings
1) There is a new optional rule (game option) called Fuel Cost which causes all land units to expend one additional supply (be fueled) when they cross a 2MP border using tactical movement. This will make it more expensive for the Japanese to move in Siberia (it will use up supplies as it represents the need to use more trucks to move these distances). Given the tight production situation for the Japanese, a move deep into Siberia is likely to be harder now due to this rule. We suggest players use this game option.
Also, units have been rearranged in the Siberian areas, so that a few more units (including the all important Russian armor in Vladivostock) will survive if Japan attacks. In addition, the fix to make rough/cold zones require 3 to 1 odds to retreat the defender will make it more likely the Russians can stop the Japanese. All of these things taken together should help.
2) Germany now pays 5 supplies whenever they attack a neutral country. They are given 15 supplies at start in 1940 to offset this. This will make a strategy of going after all the neutrals a little more difficult.
Since several Op-fire bugs and combat bugs exhisted and have now been fixed, they could impact play balance as well. Also a few data file changes were made, the main ones making it more expensive to build up super evasion tanks and making Allied heavy bombers less the uber weapon that some thought they were. We think all of these changes are improvements in getting to an even more balanced game. Of course, we'll have to see. One way to adjust balance is to use supply help bidding. Even though some are convinced that the game is balanced toward the Axis, I still see people playing PBEM games where the Axis are being given supply help because they think the game is balanced against the Axis.
We're looking forward to getting the patch out to all of you so you can determine for yourself how much better it is. We're still hoping to get it out by the end of this week.
RE: Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 3:51 am
by MikeB
It appears Spain will become more expensive.
I have a game...whereby Germany attacks Russia in fall 40.
My bomber attack from Moscow to east Poland(i think) hurt a German artillery.
so far so good.
Is this supposed to trigger release of Finland forces?[:-]
An alternative action was to use Leningrad ships to attack gulf of Finland German ships.
This again...triggered release of Finland Forces.
RE: Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 4:04 am
by Joel Billings
No, those events don't sound like events that would unfreeze Finland. If the Karelia garrison was reduced however, at the moment, any combat would check this requirement and if you were below the requirement they would unfreeze. In the patch, garrison requirements are only checked at the end of the movement phase for the player that needs to keep the garrison.
Also, if the bomber happened to fly over Finland, that would probably unfreeze them.
If you have the proper Karelia garrison and no one has flown over Finland then Finland should still be frozen. If you can reproduce Finland unfreezing when it shouldn't, send a save and tell us what steps to go through to make it happen.
RE: Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 5:08 am
by Astyanax
sigh...
This was the problem with Europa Universalis. Hard core players requesting balance are mollified with ad-hoc tweaks that are non-transparent and difficult for casual players to follow. I understand that everyone wants a better game, but lets aim for clarity and trueness of game mechanics not a ba-zillion appendages to the game system....
RE: Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 5:26 am
by Uncle_Joe
I dont understand what you are looking for here.
Obviously the balancing issues only surface after the game has been out long enough for 1000's of players to try and 'break' the system. So, since they can't anticipate what the problems might be, how can they plan for them in the game system?
The only thing that makes sense is to try and address them as they surface. The preferred way would be without making major changes to the existing game. So far, I havent seen anything in the upcoming patch that I would consider 'major'. Most seem to be slight tweaks and adjustments.
Note that many casual players wouldnt even see most of the 'problems' being addressed. So, most of the 'fixes' will be similarly transparent to the casual player.
Honestly, what would be the alternative? Dont fix the problems that crop up? I'd MUCH rather go the 'iterative tweak' route than have no fixes at all. What else would you suggest that could handle the issues being presented in a better manner?
RE: Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 5:45 am
by 5cats
Uncle_Joe how do you manage to say things in such a clear and concise manner? You must be wise beyond your years (or something!).
I obviously agree that many of the fixes aren't a big problem for the casual player. That they address "exploits" that us hard-core guys try to use to advantage, which are outside the bounds of common sense.
I can't recall though, did they get rid of the "rough" in Gibralter? I mean really, Gibralter is rough, but Scotland isn't???
RE: Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 4:47 pm
by Astyanax
Well, you dance with those that brung you, I always say.
Changing parameters to systems that are already in the game is fine (i.e. changing territory type from rough to plain)
Adding hidden triggers and conditions I have a problem with. First of all, everysingle non-transparent trigger should be listed in a screen. Is that crazy? Another thing is that all die-roll modifiers should be listed in the combat recap...not just -4, but -4 Already Attacked...or something like that...Would flatten the learning curve in half.
The real issue is that if you aren't a student of the game, it is REALLY difficult to know what all the rules are. Not everyone has the free time or brain space to A) Load the already substantial rule set into one's brain B) Keep up with all the modifications to that set.
RE: Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 8:09 pm
by 5cats
ORIGINAL: Astyanax
Another thing is that all die-roll modifiers should be listed in the combat recap...not just -4, but -4 Already Attacked...or something like that...Would flatten the learning curve in half.
Oh I quite agree! It makes be bonkers looking at the combat results & seeing "-2" For what? I shout, but only God and 2X3 knows why...
Or worse, NOT seeing a +/- where you think one should be! It should say "+1 for this, -1 for that = 0"
RE: Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 11:06 pm
by Franky513
Hi,
it would be great if you could improve the Japanese production points (factories and resources) in the game. Japan is much too weak in order to be a serious enemy for the Western Allies.
Ciao Frank
RE: Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 11:53 pm
by Uncle_Joe
You can always build factories with Japan. You have to do it early to get any pay-off though and that is hard with her early econ.
I always find that if I am doing well with Japan, I have more resources than factories, but if I make the sacrifice to get the extra factory, it slows me down enough that I cant take the resources as quickly so I cant power it....
RE: Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 1:01 am
by Erik Rutins
ORIGINAL: Astyanax
Adding hidden triggers and conditions I have a problem with. First of all, everysingle non-transparent trigger should be listed in a screen. Is that crazy? Another thing is that all die-roll modifiers should be listed in the combat recap...not just -4, but -4 Already Attacked...or something like that...Would flatten the learning curve in half.
That's a good suggestion.
Regards,
- Erik
RE: Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 1:20 am
by Joel Billings
ORIGINAL: Astyanax
Adding hidden triggers and conditions I have a problem with. First of all, everysingle non-transparent trigger should be listed in a screen. Is that crazy? Another thing is that all die-roll modifiers should be listed in the combat recap...not just -4, but -4 Already Attacked...or something like that...Would flatten the learning curve in half.
Those are good ideas. Item one is something I'm hoping to be helped by a new third tutorial that Maginot is working on. That is I'd like that tutorial to list out a lot of the things that people should know but don't immediately pick up from the rules. As for a help page that lists these triggers, maybe we can come up with something like that, espeically if someone takes the time to compile the list of things that should be on this page. Any volunteers?
As for the modifiers, we also agree that this would be a big plus. I think it is already on our task list for future work, but based on my recollections of previous conversations with Keith, this is not something that's real easy to do. It would certainly clarify things and would make bug fixing (or even knowing if there is a bug) easier.
Another item on our wish list is to provide more visibility on who is Op-firing (or actually who will be Op-firing if you make a move that causes Op-fire). We wanted to get that into this patch but it turned out to be a considerable amount of work so we had to reevaluate what we can do in this area.
We do hope to continue to improve the game and it's ease of use/understanding over time.
RE: Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 1:38 am
by TOCarroll
Thanks, this sounds like the patch is going to be a big improvement on an already great game.
As to the learning curve, I know it is steep, but, like Advanced Third Reich, or, to use a GG example War in Russia, simulating such a large conflict on such a small scale is a very complex task. I feel that the designers have done a good job in keeping the rules as simple as possible, while keeping the game playable, and giving it a realistic feel. Most of the things that make this game better than the competition is that it is playable, and it simulates the feel of grand strategy (with some more operational chrome), while giving the players choices that are historically believable.
I dont want to sound like I'm paid to do PR for the company (I'm not), I just really like the game, and think the system works.
RE: Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 7:57 am
by Franky513
We're still hoping to get it out by the end of this week.
By the way: which week? (May 16th - May 22nd)?[;)]
Ciao Frank
RE: Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 2:06 pm
by MButtazoni
ORIGINAL: Astyanax
Adding hidden triggers and conditions I have a problem with. First of all, everysingle non-transparent trigger should be listed in a screen. Is that crazy? Another thing is that all die-roll modifiers should be listed in the combat recap...not just -4, but -4 Already Attacked...or something like that...Would flatten the learning curve in half.
on the list
RE: Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 4:27 pm
by Apollo11
Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
1) There is a new optional rule (game option) called Fuel Cost which causes all land units to expend one additional supply (be fueled) when they cross a 2MP border using tactical movement. This will make it more expensive for the Japanese to move in Siberia (it will use up supplies as it represents the need to use more trucks to move these distances). Given the tight production situation for the Japanese, a move deep into Siberia is likely to be harder now due to this rule. We suggest players use this game option.
Also, units have been rearranged in the Siberian areas, so that a few more units (including the all important Russian armor in Vladivostock) will survive if Japan attacks. In addition, the fix to make rough/cold zones require 3 to 1 odds to retreat the defender will make it more likely the Russians can stop the Japanese. All of these things taken together should help.
2) Germany now pays 5 supplies whenever they attack a neutral country. They are given 15 supplies at start in 1940 to offset this. This will make a strategy of going after all the neutrals a little more difficult.
Since several Op-fire bugs and combat bugs exhisted and have now been fixed, they could impact play balance as well. Also a few data file changes were made, the main ones making it more expensive to build up super evasion tanks and making Allied heavy bombers less the uber weapon that some thought they were. We think all of these changes are improvements in getting to an even more balanced game. Of course, we'll have to see. One way to adjust balance is to use supply help bidding. Even though some are convinced that the game is balanced toward the Axis, I still see people playing PBEM games where the Axis are being given supply help because they think the game is balanced against the Axis.
We're looking forward to getting the patch out to all of you so you can determine for yourself how much better it is. We're still hoping to get it out by the end of this week.
Thanks for info and good news Joel! [&o]
BTW, I am playing my first PBEM against Oleg... [:D]
Leo "Apollo11"
RE: Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 6:59 am
by Pocus
I concur, these modifiers to To Hit or Defence really need an explaination. I bombed some German industries in winter, and they got a +8 to defence! As I dont know how this huge bonus is broke down, I dont know if its legit to get that or if there is a bug. It goes without saying that my raid proved to be totally ineffective.
RE: Upcoming Patch/Game Balance
Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 1:00 pm
by Paul Vebber
A WITP like text file for the turn of what the combats were and the modifers broken down that you can loook thorugh and digest would be one the biggest boons to understanding how the combat part of game works, particularly regarding the generally inscrutible naval combat...