Matrix Games Forums

Just looking over some formations in the OOB editor, there seem to be some strange special codes... for a few examples.
The German strike element has "elite" status..But the USA does not??
niether do the ruskies.
German and Soviet Motorcycle units are "elite"..not sure I agree with that..
same for Calvary units..I can buy the recon status but this ELITE thing is given to too many units if you ask me.
and why are all German Heavy Tanks elite???
Same goes for Panthers. they are all Elite too.
Just because its a King Tiger, does that make it Elite??
the Soviet Heavies are not elite and were probably more experienced at this point of the war.
Also noticed the "tachanka" Units have elite /recon staus...
elite maybe, but recon?? a damn wagon pulling a machine gun??
Russian SP rockets have the dedicated arty code, but germans do not...
niether do the onboard Nebels.
German Utility vehicles are Second line recon??
I never condsidered a mecedes benz a recon vechicle myself...
I thought of these units more as staff cars and such..
Even the Brits Bren Gun section is elite...
and their airborne platoons are elite recon, where as the germans, soviets, USA, marines...are just elite, not elite/recon.
until you hit the company level.

and brit engineers/sappers are coded as average recon troops?????
alot more formations probably have a wierd code entered....these need to be looked over with a fine tooth comb...

I may be way off base....but is it possible that the German tanks listed as "elite"... would the Germans gone and gathered the best of the lot for those tanks? That would why they were coded that way....just a thought...
Huffy

Alby: Nice interpretation of the codes [:D]

Ever though that these are just that codes relating to game operation not to what the specific force actually is in real operation. So I think you will find it effects behaviour within the game. Bad terminology.

So though your comments may be valid real life game wise they may not be.

Also I think you will find that if the higher formation , eg COY, is recon this is applied to all sub units. even if that subunit on its own is just normal.
Behaviour not Role

Alby, this is one of those subjective elements that don't drastically alter the flow of the game, but can have subtle effects in the "career mode".

The OOB team for 8.2 & 8.3 had some discussions about the "elite" designation, but no one ever came up with an objective guideline on who is or who isn't.

I DID successfully argue that Marine "regular" rifle units didn't deserve "elite" status, but exceptions were made for the Raiders, Paras and Engineers.

Things such as esprit and quality of specialized training play a part in this, plus the "volunteer" factor. This is taken over and above the "national characteristics" as defined by the game code.

It's a judgement call. For the Germans, it gets really tricky. I have nothing against calling SS units "elite", because (at least for the so-called "classic" divisions) they did have a high level of esprit and training. For this purpose, maybe even certain Wehrmacht units such as "Grossdeutschland" should be represented in-game and scenario design as SS
units, even if it's technically incorrect.

Thanks guys...I still think some of these "elite" units shouldnt be
and alot of formations have missing codes and other have codes they shouldnt...

can you say Modswapper??
[:D]

BTW Gunny, we played a dance Saturday night to support our troops...
we actually played 2 Stones songs!
Satisfaction, and JJ Flash
[:D]

No Matrix vets commenting on this???

Alby, I don't think the "recon" designation really means all that much unless you're fighting in open terrain--the increased sighting doesn't really help you out in close/rough/jungle.

To be frank, I think most of the vets don't sweat over the fine points--we went through all that in the development of 8.2 and 8.3, and tried to accomodate the big issues--everything else is just gravy.

As for the Stones' songs--one more is a must--"Honky Tonk Women". That was always fun to play, but for a fan like me, ANY Stones song is enjoyable. [:D]

How can you play the Stones and not do "Paint It Black?

In regards to the discussion on the special ability codes, I do agree that some units have them that shouldn't, based on historical records. But I would also caution, in reality the skill levels and experience of the troops have a lot to do with their abilities in combat. For example, let's take a typical engineer platoon, it builds things, it blows things up, and it clears things out of the way. If that same platoon is breaching its twelveth mine field it is a lot better at it than it was the first time. I know you will say this is taken into account with the experience levels and to a certain extent I would agree. But I would point out there is a lot more to clearing a minefield under fire than just removing the mines or blowing them in place. With experience, these engineers become quite adept at spotting enemy positions, concealing themselves in the natural folds of the terrain, and most importantly at protecting themselves while doing the job of clearing said minefield. Also it is documented that experienced troops in combat develop a kind of radar if you will. They will sense an ambush long before it happens or know incoming is inbound long before everyone else hears it. I have seen these types of actions in combat myself. You learn very quickly to trust the reactions of these men.

To me the game is a compromise between most of the elements involved in combat. The special ability codes, and experience levels sometimes seem a little out of whack to me. But in general I would say the way it is now is the best compromise so far between these issues.

Dragoon45, you raise a good point. The Mega Campaigns, as designed, have their own paths pre-set. The generated campaigns in SPWaW give one more leeway. The ultimate SPWaW experience, IMHO, is still the WWII long campaign, given a selection of six majors. As time goes on, and experience is accumulated, you can expect more from your men, regardless of special skills in recon ability and what-not. Experience and morale is everything-- keep the best units alive, and their cadres will develop into elite shock troops, no matter what branch they are.

ORIGINAL: Alby

No Matrix vets commenting on this???

Don´t go overboard with the "elite" interpretations! Ya know it´s just random up to 10 points added to the base (as well random) experience and morale as found in the country rating tables! At last you could come out with a "Elite" platoon composed of "average" to "veteran" troops maybe. Real "elite" in the game is anything above 100 experience points, but this is not switched by the OOB "elite" flag. It´s just a tendency for certain troops to get a little better than the average ones though not always.

The further development of the unit quality flags for the current SP2WW2/SPMBT versions yield much better results as you can add modifiers to both, morale and experience seperately. Want low experience, but fanatical troops? Subtract from experience and boost morale, while it´s all independent from the preferences settings!

To get a better evaluation of unit quality per nation in SPWAW, check the country rating tables per year and consider the "elite" (or "second line") modifiers. IE a 1945 "elite" german SS infantry platoon unit might not necessarily overpower a similarly composed "Average" US infantry squad (also 1945 off course).

Some test: Set date to february 1945. In editor purchased a SS Rifle platoon (has "elite" flag).

Platoon units B0, 1, 2, 3
Experience: 73, 78, 68, 69
Morale: 80, 78, 76, 79
Leader INF: 67, 70, 69, 66

Purchased US Rifle platoon (no flag = "average").

Platoon units B0, 1, 2, 3
Experience: 80, 69, 73, 75
Morale: 71, 66, 83, 74
Leader INF: 78, 75, 73, 71

Preferences setting "Historic Ratings" switched ON.

Does that help?[;)]

Funny looking at the morale
The germans is higher in late 45 than the USA [X(]
cant win em all I guess [:D]

Alby, Michael Wood is working on changes to the code. In case you've forgotten, this is what he said:

"Hello...

[See post, below]. I need to get back to work on another project. Below is a list of changes I made. Don't know when the production crew will have the download ready.

Bye...

Michael Wood

SPWaW Programmer Patch Notes

1) Fixed a bug which could allow size zero units with only one man left to appear as snipers in some combat and spotting routines.
2) Adjusted base experience and morale values used for creation of leaders and units. These are minimum values, to which a random number is added. See tables, below.
3) Made it a bit easier to spot enemy units, especially at range one of zero.
4) Rewrote the code that chooses if the player mission is advance or assault in the long WWII Campaign and campaigns created using the Campaign Generator. Decreased the likelihood of Allied armies in the early war and Axis powers in the late war.
5) Changed the way reinforcement points are generated in the long WWII Campaign. Instead of having a maximum of 1/15th the value of the players force, the value is now 1/10th of the enemy force. The reasoning here is that reinforcements are more needed when the player is outnumbered, such as in a defend mission, than when he has the dominate force, such as in an advance mission.
6) In 1944 of the long WWII campaign, the computer opponent will receive more troops, if the human is playing Axis and fewer, if he is playing Allied. This effect becomes greater in 1945.

// LEADER EXPERIENCE
// 1939 to 1945
{70,75,75,75,70,65,60}, //GERMAN
{70,70,70,65,65,60,60}, //FINNISH
{30,30,35,35,30,25,25}, //ITALIAN
{30,30,30,30,25,20,20}, //RUMANIAN
{35,35,35,35,30,25,25}, //HUNGARIAN
{70,70,70,70,70,70,70}, //JAPANESE
{40,40,40,40,35,35,35}, //FRENCH
{50,50,55,55,60,60,60}, //BRITISH
{45,45,45,50,50,50,55}, //BELGIUM
{45,45,45,50,50,50,55}, //DUTCH
{45,45,50,55,60,65,65}, //POLISH
{30,35,40,45,50,55,60}, //SOVIET
{40,40,45,50,55,50,55}, //US ARMY
{55,55,55,60,65,70,70}, //US MARINE
{25,25,25,30,35,40,40}, //CHINESE
{45,45,45,50,55,60,60}, //GREEK
{45,45,40,45,45,45,45}, //NORWEIGAN
{40,40,40,45,50,55,50}, //YUGOSLAVIAN
{55,55,55,60,60,65,65}, //CANADA
{45,50,55,55,60,60,60}, //INDIA
{55,55,55,60,65,65,65}, //ANZAC
{40,40,55,60,55,60,60}, //FREE FRENCH
{25,25,25,25,25,35,45}, //COMMUNIST CHINA
{50,55,55,55,55,60,60}, //CZECHOSLOVAKIA
{40,40,45,60,55,60,55}, //PHILIPINNES
{45,50,50,50,50,55,55}, //NATIONALIST SPAIN
{45,50,50,50,50,55,55}, //REPUBLICAN SPAIN
{30,30,35,35,30,25,25}, //BULGARIA

// LEADER MORALE
// 1939 to 1945
{70,70,70,70,70,65,50}, //GERMAN
{70,70,70,65,65,60,55}, //FINNISH
{40,35,35,35,30,25,25}, //ITALIAN
{35,35,35,40,35,30,25}, //RUMANIAN
{35,35,40,45,40,35,30}, //HUNGARIAN
{70,70,70,70,70,70,70}, //JAPANESE
{40,40,35,35,30,30,30}, //FRENCH
{60,60,60,60,60,60,55}, //BRITISH
{45,45,45,50,55,60,55}, //BELGIUM
{45,45,45,50,55,60,55}, //DUTCH
{60,55,50,55,60,65,60}, //POLISH
{35,40,45,50,55,60,65}, //SOVIET
{40,40,45,50,55,60,60}, //US ARMY
{55,55,60,65,70,70,70}, //US MARINE
{35,35,35,40,40,40,40}, //CHINESE
{60,60,60,55,60,65,65}, //GREEK
{45,45,40,45,50,55,55}, //NORWEIGAN
{40,40,40,45,50,55,60}, //YUGOSLAVIAN
{65,65,65,65,65,65,65}, //CANADA
{45,45,45,50,50,55,55}, //INDIA
{65,65,65,65,65,65,65}, //ANZAC
{40,40,55,60,55,60,55}, //FREE FRENCH
{35,35,35,40,40,45,45}, //COMMUNIST CHINA
{45,45,40,45,50,55,55}, //CZECHOSLOVAKIA
{40,40,55,60,55,60,55}, //PHILIPINNES
{45,45,40,45,50,55,55}, //NATIONALIST SPAIN
{45,45,40,45,50,55,55}, //REPUBLICAN SPAIN
{35,35,40,45,40,35,30}, //BULGARIA

// TROOPS EXPERIENCE
// 1939 to 1945
{65,70,75,70,65,60,55}, //GERMAN
{70,70,70,65,65,60,60}, //FINNISH
{35,35,40,40,35,30,30}, //ITALIAN
{35,35,35,35,30,25,25}, //RUMANIAN
{35,35,35,35,30,30,30}, //HUNGARIAN
{70,70,70,70,65,60,55}, //JAPANESE
{45,45,45,45,40,40,40}, //FRENCH
{50,50,50,55,60,60,60}, //BRITISH
{45,45,45,50,50,50,55}, //BELGIUM
{45,45,45,50,50,50,55}, //DUTCH
{45,45,50,55,60,65,65}, //POLISH
{35,40,45,50,55,60,60}, //SOVIET
{40,40,40,45,50,55,60}, //US ARMY
{50,50,50,55,60,65,70}, //US MARINE
{30,30,30,35,40,40,40}, //CHINESE
{45,45,45,50,55,60,60}, //GREEK
{45,45,40,45,45,45,45}, //NORWEIGAN
{40,40,40,45,50,55,50}, //YUGOSLAVIAN
{50,50,50,55,60,65,65}, //CANADA
{40,45,50,55,55,60,60}, //INDIA
{50,50,50,55,60,65,65}, //ANZAC
{45,45,50,55,50,55,60}, //FREE FRENCH
{30,35,40,40,45,45,55}, //COMMUNIST CHINA
{45,50,50,50,50,50,50}, //CZECHOSLOVAKIA
{35,35,40,40,45,50,50}, //PHILIPINNES
{35,40,50,50,50,50,50}, //NATIONALIST SPAIN
{35,35,35,35,35,35,35}, //REPUBLICAN SPAIN
{35,40,45,45,40,35,35}, //BULGARIA

// TROOPS MORALE
// 1939 to 1945
{70,70,70,70,70,65,50}, //GERMAN
{70,70,70,65,65,60,55}, //FINNISH
{40,35,35,35,30,25,25}, //ITALIAN
{35,35,35,40,35,30,25}, //RUMANIAN
{35,35,40,45,40,35,30}, //HUNGARIAN
{70,70,70,70,70,70,70}, //JAPANESE
{40,40,35,35,30,30,30}, //FRENCH
{60,60,60,60,60,60,55}, //BRITISH
{45,45,45,50,55,60,55}, //BELGIUM
{45,45,45,50,55,60,55}, //DUTCH
{60,55,50,55,60,65,60}, //POLISH
{35,40,45,50,55,60,65}, //SOVIET
{40,40,45,50,55,60,60}, //US ARMY
{55,55,60,65,70,70,70}, //US MARINE
{35,35,35,40,40,40,40}, //CHINESE
{60,60,60,55,60,65,65}, //GREEK
{45,45,40,45,50,55,55}, //NORWEIGAN
{40,40,40,45,50,55,60}, //YUGOSLAVIAN
{65,65,65,65,65,65,65}, //CANADA
{45,45,45,50,50,55,55}, //INDIA
{65,65,65,65,65,65,65}, //ANZAC
{40,40,55,60,55,60,55}, //FREE FRENCH
{35,35,35,35,35,35,35}, //CZECHOSLOVAKIA
{25,25,20,20,25,30,30}, //PHILIPINNES
{40,45,45,45,45,45,45}, //NATIONALIST SPAIN
{35,35,35,35,35,35,35}, //REPUBLICAN SPAIN
{25,25,30,30,25,25,25}, //BULGARIA"

Personal note: The German leader morale/experience will be lowered from previous levels as the war progresses to the inevitable defeat. Same goes for the other Axis powers--the game should be a reasonably faithful recreation of historical trends, as it should be--the what if's can be left to the designers.

roger that

From country rating tables in V8.3:

USA 1945:

Base Experience: 70
Base Morale: 70
Base Leader skill: 70

Germany 1945:

Base Expereince: 60
Base Morale: 65
Base Leader: 60

My above example was created from a single attempt and just shows the random fluctuations based on the country rating tables in cunjunction with the "elite/second line" flag. Another attempt might give slightly different results.

Important to understand is that the rating system is not strict and that the "elite" OOB flag is not the same as the "elite" designating units with experience above 100!

Michael Woods changes to the country rating tables surely will work out the differences between nations more. Whether the OOB´s are then more balanced is left to be seen.[&:]

His numbers show the Greeks higher than the USA
hmmmmmmm [&:]

ORIGINAL: Alby

His numbers show the Greeks higher than the USA
hmmmmmmm [&:]

Alby, this may have to do with the fact that the Greeks were fighting a partisan war as well as a civil war (but, Jeez, the Balkan tribes have been fighting amongst themselves for centuries!). Don't forget--these are subjective ratings, with a slew of other factors thrown into the mix.

This is why I think we need to see more scenarios on the vicious anti-partisan campaigns waged by the Germans (and later, the Russians) against hard-core nationalists of the various factions. This would be another slant on taking SPWaW into the modern era of combat. Taken in this light, the Greek ratings make sense (and are also a throwback to the Greek military heritage, which is pretty impressive and goes back a couple of milennia).

the special code does have a noticed effect when arty is classed as "dedicated fast resonse "

according to the manual...these units tend to be more accurate