Matrix Games Forums

OK, things are slowing down here so its time to discuss tactics. Today's problem; I dropped my usual Panzer orientated overwatch and maneuver scenario infatuation long enough to try some gritty Pacific scenarios. I haven't played in the Pacific since ver 2 so this was my first time playing with the new infantry toughness and weapons changes. I was playing USMC (me) vs IJA, (AIP) all infantry with supporting arty/air and heavy weapons. No armor in sight. I found that casualties were extremely high. The specific situation is that I tried to suppress the Japanese with heavy arty (heavy & small naval guns) which created a lot of smoke and visibilities of one to four hexes. I found that the IJA would just not suppress. I would knock the crew off of a gun with arty then move up to start direct small arms fire at them. I found the 8 to 10 person crew was firing back at 20 to 40% to hit probability. I took a lot of casualties and knocked the crew down to one or two men. Then next turn that last man or two returned my fire and killed my fine Marines with a 20% to hit probability.

Once I had closed to within sighting range, I was too close for arty. I could not use FOs to direct fire as I only had a few and I could not have them everywhere and directly exposed to IJA small arms fire. I used 60mm & 81mm mortar fires that close to my troops but it was not accurate enough to suppress. Generally I would use overwatch fires to cover my close in troops but with visibilities so low, the overwatch units are themselves were vulnerable to direct small arms fires. I had to move up one unit, take some KIAs, move up a second & take more KIAs then alternate the two all the while taking one 1 - 3 KIAs per IJA shot per weapon at 2 - 3 hexes. Of course I was killing them at the same rate but I did not notice any reduction in their accuracy or rate of fire. When I attacked a crew served weapon that hadn't been abandoned (e.g. an ATG), It would continue to return effective fire even with only one person crewing it. A HMG with a two person crew would kill a Marine or two with the MG then another with rifle fire.

Oh and a note on those super-effective flame throwers. I have seen this issue twice before but in this battle my USMC FT teams with exp in the mid 80's would only close assault about 50% of the time. The other half, they panicked. That as soon as I clicked on the target, they took 20 points of suppression and did not fire their weapons.

I still managed to achieve a 2:1 kill ratio but I would like to find a solution that lowers my casualties. Additionally, does this seem a typical USMV vs. IJA battle? I know that both sides have firepower bonuses at close range.

Larry,

You are on the right track with your tactics, but what would help you tremendously once you take fire from a position is smoke. In assaulting Japanese positions (which are a little too effective with small arms (IMHO)), once they expose themselves, manuever!!!! Frontal assaults or trading shots is never the most effective route to destroy IJA/IJN troops. What I do (if no armor is available) is once identified, manuever around the unit (most have a primary avenue of approach) and wait until one full strength USMC unit is one hex away. Suppress from a distance with all available arms and then assault with that USMC unit. They will probably take some casualties, but their firepower will prevail. As a USMC officer, that is not what we like to do, but in WWII, with the lack of suppressive fire and good stand-off weapons, close assault was the order of the day. Let me know if this helps!!!
<img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

Since most jungle terrain should be "rough" and the random map routines don't include enough for my taste in jungle situations, I play most Pacific battles with infantry toughness on 130 to even 150 and hitting on 75-85 to account for the "default terrain" being much more difficult and offering much greater cover than typical European terain, and the fighting conditions being far more oppressive.

THe default prefes are really more suited to Europe and I think players should feel free to use the hitting and inf toughness prefs to better represent the differences in Pacific Theater fighting.

In playing in the Japan league, I learned that SMG equips squads are a must. Since most battle are close range, they could really put the hurt on the enemy.

My friend and I just finished playing several email games using mid 1942. In all cases, the battles were very bloody with high casualties on both sides. The Japanese are very tough (I played them). They rally very easily and don't fall back under fire. The marines generally had an advantage in firepower and in hitting. Marine armor was also very difficult to deal with. The Japanese really have few options to counter armor with. The Marines also generally have better mobility. As the Japanese, you usually only have trucks for transport. Trucks are worthless in the jungle. It sounds like you are on the right track with your tactics. The South Pacific is a very different battlefield than Europe is. In the Pacific, you really have to fight for every inch.

In a pbem battle I am playing, the Japanese opponent is using 47mm atgs with deadly effectiveness. My armor advantage disappeared very quickly. While the engineer flamethrower teams are not very effective, later in the war you can get Satan tanks that barbecue Japanese squads in one shot.

In a pbem battle I am playing, the Japanese opponent is using 47mm atgs with deadly effectiveness. My armor advantage disappeared very quickly. While the engineer flamethrower teams are not very effective, later in the war you can get Satan tanks that barbecue Japanese squads in one shot.

The only things I've found that will supress the nasty Nip is being hit by multiple squads, mortars, or Naval gunfire. Don't even think about closing with them unless you've got AT LEAST three squads to bring up. There is no other way to avoid heavy losses that I've found. It's always like an old West gunfight: toe-to-toe and who runs out of nerve first. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

[ August 29, 2001: Message edited by: Warrior ]</p>

Never go one on one with the Japanese. Two or three to one is your tactic. And BARs, BARs, BARs! You can never have too many BARs. And expect to lose men.

troopie

Shotguns! <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">
Get the Marine squads armed with shotguns......
The shotgun, I have found in playing Pacific scenarios, is the best weapon for jungle fighting.
Followed by the Thompson/Owen SMG, then the BAR. The flamethrower comes in fourth. (mainly due to a limited ammo supply)
I have also found that 60mm Mortars are good too.
As they will only affect the target hex, and the Marine FO's are usually accurate enought to drop them right where you want them, even if they have no LOS. Just remember to buy an ammo. dump to go with your mortars, as they usually only come with ammo. for just 2 fire missions. Just remember that no matter how good your men are, they are going to take casualties when they move into LOS of a Japanese unit.

To Larry Holt:

Warrior is right, fighting with Japanese troops in close range is not a good idea if you didn't suppress them before and i too outnumber a single JA sqd with at least 3 USMC sqds.
You may use your recon teams or patrols to spot enemy positions, keep them unspotted, i.e. don't shoot and move only one hex at time, and start bombing the JA sqds with 60mm or 81mm mortars, then start moving your USMC sqds toward the enemy one per time, let the first one shoot at Japanese from long-medium range (best using mmg) and the following from medium-short range, this would do the job. As for the Japanese crews consider them like regular troops, suppres, approach and kill them all, it could take a turn or two to wipe them out from one adiacent hex but never go in the same hex otherwise you cannot use support fire from other units or it will also hurt your own men.
Hope this may help you.
Bye

Originally posted by Possum:
Shotguns! <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">
Get the Marine squads armed with shotguns......
The shotgun, I have found in playing Pacific scenarios, is the best weapon for jungle fighting.
Followed by the Thompson/Owen SMG, then the BAR. The flamethrower comes in fourth. (mainly due to a limited ammo supply)

---

I do support this rank!
Shotguns are simply terrific: i had recently few cases of some USMC squads of mines which DESTROYED a full strength IJA with one shot!
The reverse side is that they have a 2 hexes range of fire, so you must get close enough <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Great ideas here. I see that there is great interest here in other than German/Soviet operations. Thanks for all the suggestions.

"Shotguns!" Apparently this is from the manual on small-unit tactics by the Hatfields
& McCoys, subheaded "the WV Parents' Guide on Marrying Off Your Daughter".