Matrix Games Forums

It's way WAY too easy!
Hardly realistic at all either.
They get it and presto! Game over? I think not! I doubt Stalin would have said "Oh dear, Japan has 26 resources all repaired & everything. I guess that's it for Communism!" More likely they would have declared war on both Germany & Japan to prevent it. Ditto for the USA.
For the game to end without Russia OR the USA involved in any way is just silly. Not WW2 at all, but an exercise in futility.
Lets revise this pronto! Put some meaning into it.
Grrr! Hisss!

Here, I agree it is too easy[:@]. But here is how I play it. Turn off AV but check at the end of the allied turn or the start of the German turn to see if AV is met. If so then end the game, this lets the Allies get a shot back at the Germans prior victory. This may not make a difference but it really is not that easy if you have good allied player. More likely you will get it after collapsing the Soviets in the Axis sandwich.[&o][&o]

ORIGINAL: 5cats

It's way WAY too easy!
Hardly realistic at all either.
They get it and presto! Game over? I think not! I doubt Stalin would have said "Oh dear, Japan has 26 resources all repaired & everything. I guess that's it for Communism!" More likely they would have declared war on both Germany & Japan to prevent it. Ditto for the USA.
For the game to end without Russia OR the USA involved in any way is just silly. Not WW2 at all, but an exercise in futility.
Lets revise this pronto! Put some meaning into it.
Grrr! Hisss!

yes, I agree that it would be nice to give the allies a chance to retake something at the tail end of that turn. I feel kinda cheap winning by AV nowadays.

Different people have suggested different fixes for this but one thing people agree on is that it is too easy. I know the response of some is to just turn it off; but I think you need an AV to give the Axis something to shoot for. The problem is that it is just too easy. My solution would be to leave it a 70 production but also make it a requirement that Axis production be at least say 75% or so of Allied production. This would require the Axis to at least take some production away from Russia or else conquer England.

Whatever the solution I hope this will be addressed in a future patch.

We're looking at this (and the testers are actively discussing it). It's something we're likely to come up with changes for in the patch after the Online Play (TCP/IP/LAN) patch. We haven't settled on a set of changes yet, but I'm sure we'll come up with something.

What I'd really like to see (and I know it's been discussed) is free trade included in the AV calculation, along with an increase in level.

This would discourage attacking neutrals unless it actually has a bottom line benefit to production, and avoid some sudden wins that come from attacking trading neutrals. Seems far preferable to charging a supply cost.

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

We're looking at this (and the testers are actively discussing it). It's something we're likely to come up with changes for in the patch after the Online Play (TCP/IP/LAN) patch. We haven't settled on a set of changes yet, but I'm sure we'll come up with something.

Thanks for info Joel!

IMHO there should at least be two (2) changes:

#1
The level of AV point should be raised from current 70 to some higher value (some have advocated 75 for example - I advocated even more because only with significant Axis conquest there could have been some sort of "forced" truce and end of war).

#2
The level should be checked _ONLY_ at the end of the complete turn (i.e. after Allied players play out their moves - right now this is different and checked after each player's turn which is not OK because Axis can do sudden expansion just to get resources and "artificially" gather necessary points with token force).


Leo "Apollo11"

Yes, Apollo has said it well.
In my recent AV losses, I could easily have re-captured 6-8 resources just from Japan. Just by island hopping. Since his whole plan was AV, he had little or no Research or units built, while both the USA and Russia were teched-up and ready to go! Without the "instant win" things would have gotten ugly, fast for the Axis!

Yes, Apollo has said it well.
In my recent AV losses, I could easily have re-captured 6-8 resources just from Japan. Just by island hopping. Since his whole plan was AV, he had little or no Research or units built, while both the USA and Russia were teched-up and ready to go! Without the "instant win" things would have gotten ugly, fast for the Axis!

I think this is why the level of 70 is fine. if AV is checked at the end of the turn AND the level is raised, I would find it hard for the axis to ever get an AV.

one change at a time, otherwise we might be crying for another change in the opposite direction.

while i believe there are loopholes in the current AV system esp. it encourage the attack of neutrals to grab a quick win.

but i disagree the suggestion for counting free trades in AV and raising the AV level combo, cos IMO, that will encourage the Allies to attack neutrals so as to deny Axis' free trades. and u will see the Allies attack Norway, Swenden, Spain ... [X(]

what i suggest is to excl all PP from neutrals in the calculation and readjust the AV level. in otherwords, Axis must conquer enough RPs from the Allies. and IMO, if the AV level is right, that makes more sense for the Axis to attack russia.

im open to the new AV level, u can either decrease the AV level to compensate for the RPs from Yugo, Norway, Greece, Siam, and Spain or u can change to a certain % to the PP of Allies.

how's that?

AN

ORIGINAL: a511

while i believe there are loopholes in the current AV system esp. it encourage the attack of neutrals to grab a quick win.

but i disagree the suggestion for counting free trades in AV and raising the AV level combo, cos IMO, that will encourage the Allies to attack neutrals so as to deny Axis' free trades. and u will see the Allies attack Norway, Swenden, Spain ... [X(]

what i suggest is to excl all PP from neutrals in the calculation and readjust the AV level. in otherwords, Axis must conquer enough RPs from the Allies. and IMO, if the AV level is right, that makes more sense for the Axis to attack russia.

im open to the new AV level, u can either decrease the AV level to compensate for the RPs from Yugo, Norway, Greece, Siam, and Spain or u can change to a certain % to the PP of Allies.

how's that?

AN

hmm, interesting observation about the impact on Allied behavior.

Maybe the best really is just compute AV at beginning of German turn (allowing Allies a recapture chance), and if anything further is necessary modified US DOW rules. Like, if all of mainland Europe is German controlled, US declares war.

I wouldn't want to exclude neutrals from AV, I mean, that's how the war started right? Invading neutrals. It seems too scripted or controlled to say which "neutral" countries Germany or Japan can invade for victory. Better to gently encourage historical outcomes, rather than force it.

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead
Maybe the best really is just compute AV at beginning of German turn (allowing Allies a recapture chance), and if anything further is necessary modified US DOW rules. Like, if all of mainland Europe is German controlled, US declares war.

Actually, I might not be averse to something like: AV computed at beginning of German turn. If AV is pending at the beginning of any Allied Power turn, that Power declares war.

Precise AV level TBD, but 70 seems reasonable.

So, the US and USSR would kick in and have exactly one turn to try to rectify things before AV is computed at the beginning of the next German turn. And then no Power would ever sit out the entire game .

I like that. When AV is enabled the allies have one last turn to fix things. The USA should have enough transports and power by then to assault a place or two to take factories and resources. I can see that. The problem is that's almost unreasonable. Germany and Japan are massively out gunned by the USA... if every turn they have to trade a province with the USA they'd lose just by attrition.

USSR is another story, but personally I think the best way to AV is for Japan and Germany to both attack Russia and let Japan take the caucus, because they lack resources.

What should probably be done is After you have 70 you have to hold it until the begining of the turn after the US decides to enter the war. That'll give the axis powers time to build up defenses for the assault.

one turn is all the USA needs to essential knock the japanese out of the war. west coast carriers and BB ships can loop over around alaska and isolate japan from the mainland, all in the very first turn!

sure the japanese can defend against this, but its not as if its impossible to stop an AV. I think checking at the end of the WA turn (or beginning of german turn) is all that would need to be changed.

And then they lose the fleet. Or else they are at least taking a huge risk by doing so out of supply. Sure, they can bring transports, but its still going be a gamble.

not necessarily...actually japan has to be very careful. Her source of supply is centralized. If that big japanese fleet is far off, they wont have the supply necessary to return to combat the US ships blockading. Ditto the airforce, which will likely be in offensive positions far removed from japan.

I suppose thats true. I usually have a stockpile of resources in Indochina and I almost never empty the islands of their starting 5's. That tends to leave me a pretty nice 'reserve' if Japan is cut off, not to mention what is routinely built in Manchuria that could be railed south and then to the fleet if needbe.

Personally, I think its a bold, but risky maneuver for the WAllies to attempt. Time is on their side. Why risk so much so early? I suppose a lot has to do with the timing of the Japanese attack as well. If they stick with the Fa41 or Wi42. then I think the WAllies have better things to be doing than risking their fleets. If its another of the 'wait until the last minute while we stomp neutrals or double Russia', then yeah, the US HAS to come out full-bore and with quick game changing potential to forestall any further attempts at the AV.

ORIGINAL: Daykeras
What should probably be done is After you have 70 you have to hold it until the begining of the turn after the US decides to enter the war. That'll give the axis powers time to build up defenses for the assault.

No objection to that, seems reasonable.

My thought was that if hitting AV level automatically resulted in DOW, then you'd have to build to that point in a careful and consolodated way. If you haven't already built up the defenses as you get there, and a single turn of US action can derail it, then it seems reasonable that AV isn't deserved.

As for the US Pac Fleet based in San Diego cutting Japan from the mainland ... it's too far for the battleships, unless their speed is tech'd up. And of course this move is always possible from the US, not just to avoid AV. Now, against AV it could be done in desparation, but it would seem to lead to the fleet getting pounded by the Japanese, and maybe AV is delayed by one more turn (assuming the Germans can hold on that long). With enough prep work on the Japanese side, it wouldn't seem to be a huge threat unless AV was tenuous to begin with.

ORIGINAL: WanderingHead

My thought was that if hitting AV level automatically resulted in DOW, then you'd have to build to that point in a careful and consolodated way. If you haven't already built up the defenses as you get there, and a single turn of US action can derail it, then it seems reasonable that AV isn't deserved.

As for the US Pac Fleet based in San Diego cutting Japan from the mainland ... With enough prep work on the Japanese side, it wouldn't seem to be a huge threat unless AV was tenuous to begin with.

Which is my point in the first place that the AV is so tenuous, especially on Japan's side, that the US doesn't even need to enter the war. Available British forces could knock out 2-3 islands and with them 4-5 resources. Of course attacking those islands in the first place does activate the US. And that Russia would hardly just sit there as Germany declaired itself King of the Mountain.

To repeat, it just seems silly to end the game with AV without the USA or even Russia getting involved. That's, what, 2/3 of the Allied forces?

As for the US Pac Fleet based in San Diego cutting Japan from the mainland ... it's too far for the battleships, unless their speed is tech'd up. And of course this move is always possible from the US, not just to avoid AV. Now, against AV it could be done in desparation, but it would seem to lead to the fleet getting pounded by the Japanese, and maybe AV is delayed by one more turn (assuming the Germans can hold on that long). With enough prep work on the Japanese side, it wouldn't seem to be a huge threat unless AV was tenuous to begin with.

like pyrrhic said above, it depends how the japanese are arranged. he should know, because he's the one who did it to me!

I was at 67 VP and easily had victory in my grasp the next turn. the problem was that I had pounded russia into nothing and most of my japanese planes were deep in russia. The japanese fleet was in the south preventing any attempts at retaking the DEI.

The BB ships from pearl can reach eastern japan and the west coast carriers reach western japan, completely cutting off japan. so I went from 67 points and russia done for, to a completely shattered japan in one turn. I could have defended against it, except I never knew the carrier route past alaska to western japan was a one turn trip.

the point still remains though that with the entry of the USA into the war, victory points are fine at 70. it has to be a perfect game by the axis to stop the USA from ruining a 70 AV in just one turn. they can easily bomb or invade nearly anyplace on the map! So IMO the 70 point number is fine, the factor that needs addressing is when the USA is unfrozen or when autovictory is checked.