Matrix Games Forums

This is complaining! This is whining! Call it whatever! But that´s far off reality or history.

I´ve got an exciting PBEM going against Wolfpack where this happened: KB sunk two American carriers in a TF without nearly any opposition, the next turn the other TF containing the last three of his carriers are attacking KB which can score a few 250 kg AP bomb hits and a torpedoe hit, but nothing to worry about for Wolfpack. Unlucky as I was the fight happened at a range of 2!!! hexes so SBDs dropped 1000 lb GB bombs and also the torpedoe bombers attacked. My carriers, already reduced in planes, took some hits of course - nothing unexpected up to now - a DD and a CA was hit by a 1000 lb bomb and I took 7 bomb hits and 2 torpedoe hits on my carriers. What do you expect now? Okay 7 1000 lb bombs and two torpedoes on a fleet carrier, okay that´s a reef! But it wasn´t all on one carrier. One was hit by 3, one by two bombs and the third by 2 bombs and two torpedoes. So the next turn I looked up the damage and saw of course some sys damage (from 30 - 50), some MINOR fires (hey, 1000 lb bombs and minor fires???) and of course FLOOD DAMAGE (20, 28 - these were the ones who "only" were hit by bombs and one with 39 - this was hit by bombs and two torps).

I thought oh shit 3 carriers are out of action for half a year, but I could live with it because my opponent has lost 2 and if he doesn´t attack once again they should make it back, if I would be completly unlucky the one with 39 flood damage could sink. My fleet is far away from a adequate port but with that damage they are supposed to make it. Should I also start another WILL THEY MAKE IT thread before posting this one?

NO, THEY DON´T MAKE IT!!!!!

Flood damage increases 20 points each turn!! So it takes 4 or max 5 turns and ALL three carriers are sunk! Hey, what a victory for my opponent! Or should I say what a sh*t, the Japanese damage control is just wrong rated! It just doesn´t exist in this game. I know that the Japs were not nearly as good as the Allied in fighting fires, but how can you explain three carriers go down with this amount of flood damage. FOW, bad die rolls, no luck, tactical nukes,...? You can´t explain this! I think Ron Saueracker has been involved in a thread recently where he also brought up some good reasons why Japanese damage control shouldn´t be THAT BAD! Ron Saueracker fan boyism! It´s just not realistic that 7 bombs, even if 1000 lb. GB and two torpedoes sink 3 fleet carriers EASILY! It looks like the ships were abandoned after the hits!

These are not the first carriers I´ve lost, as I´m playing for a year now, both sides, surely more than 1000 turns. But loosing three for "NOTHING". What am I supposed to do? Don´t send out my carriers more than 5 hexes away from a size 9 port, at best with 200 repair shipyard points? Or wait until they get sunk in port in 44? Like it´s programmed now this would be best, because my opponent has always to fear my carriers! But fearing from what? I don´t want to see the outcome of a 2000 lb GB bomb hit on a carrier by a B17 and the flattop goes booooom - glug glug! I´ve never experienced the loss of my carriers like this, because they were always really hit hard with several bombs and torpedoes and it was obvious that they sink.

What would the guys who are responsible for this game say if we have Allied players complaining about their sunken carriers because they were hit by 5 or 6 250 kg AP bombs?? Never would an Allied player just think about loosing his carrier because of bomb hits in only! Okay, I know there can be circumstances that it could happen - seldom! Don´t bring up the Princton now! They didn´t blow up because of ammo or fuel explosions - look at the starting flood damage. They are going down because of bad, worse, no worst damage control. And the Japanese sailors weren´t THAT bad.

It´s just like: ALERT, ALERT birds coming towards us! OUCH, we were hit by two pelicans and have two big holes from the flight deck through all stations and this incredible bird also went through the hull! ABANDON, ABANDON, we´re sinking! Admiral, we were hit by special trained 12 kg AP pelicans which inflicted 20 flood damage! Sorry, we weren´t able to keep these three carriers afloat!

I played this game on and on and on and will still play it. I´m adicted to it. I like it, with all those bugs there were and are, with it´s flaws. I can accept losses, I´m playing the Japanese side normally and the Japanese side is determined to lose all it´s planes, ships, everything. But it´s a question how they should lose it. I know this thread is probably just for nothing, there won´t be anything changed, I wonder if I even get an official reply. [:)] But the responsible guys should think about, what the Japanese navy was! Japanese sailors weren´t tourists on a banana boat, they were one of the worlds best!

You know, have you considered that you might just be really, really, REALLY unlucky?

I fought a big carrier battle (as the Allies) a few turns back against most of the KB, and only managed to sink two of the Japanese carriers, even though I landed several bombs and torpedoes on all of them. The rest just limped away.

ORIGINAL: Terminus

You know, have you considered that you might just be really, really, REALLY unlucky?

I fought a big carrier battle (as the Allies) a few turns back against most of the KB, and only managed to sink two of the Japanese carriers, even though I landed several bombs and torpedoes on all of them. The rest just limped away.

Or perhaps really, really, really, really, really unlucky?

I think there´s a maximum of unlucky! [:)] If I would have been so unlucky that the bombs inflicted ammo and fuel explosions that the ship went off right away that´s one sort of unlucky (3 carriers??). But with this flood damage? 3 carriers? I think there´s more a relationship to the damage control than to luck! It´s just like my carriers all hit a mine and are going down because they were two times unlucky: first time they hit a mine, second time the crew abandoned the ship and didn´t do anything against the flood damage.

Midway -

Hiryu sunk with 4 bomb hits
Akagi sunk with 2 bomb hits
Kaga sunk 4 bomb hits
Soryu sunk with 3 bomb hits

4 carriers 13 bombs.

Source United States Strategic Bombing Survey.

Those hits were critical, as the planes were on the deck and all carriers sunk the same day.

Yeah, my planes were off on an attack and on CAP. I don´t know how WITP handles planes on deck, but I think it doesn´t. And as I said, my ships weren´t heavy damaged!!!!!! They didn´t sink after the battle, they increase flood damage day by day until glug glug! And I don´t know how the damage control is programmed, I just think there´s something weird.

Hi,
IMO the concept of damage control is a bit flawed historically. The reason I think so is that the side winning the battle and taking the battlefield prohibits the opposition to show how good their damage control really is. Therefore Japan is credited with supposedly bad damage control cause they didn't get many ships home. That this comes from the fact that they lost most battles and their ships had to suffer more and repeated hits than their american counterparts seems to be overlooked. OTOH when some US ship is limping back with just a few hits under a 200 A/C CAP umbrella the superiour damage control is credited.

Battle of Marianas

CV Taiho sunk 1 Torpedo hit.

I guess you could call it another critical hit. But I see a trend developing with Japanese CV's and critical hits.

20 June 1944:
On second day of Battle of the Marianas, struck around 1720 by aerial torpedoes; one in the starboard engine room, another "probable" in the port quarter. Fires break out, and went dead in the water, listing to port. Damage control teams fight the flood and fire, but two hours after the hits - at 1926 - heavy internal explosions occur, probably from leaking petrol vapor. Mortally stricken, HIYO settles rapidly and sinks stern first at 1932 hours. Lost with her are 250 officers and men, but Captain Yokoi and a 1,000 of her crew are rescued by destroyers SHIGURE, MICHISHIO, HAMAKAZE, HAMANAMI, AKISHIMO, and HAYASHIMO

I guess this is a sixth Japanese CV sunk by a critical hit.

Japanese damage controll is notoriously BAD in WITP, I have had a CV hit by a 1000 and 500lbs bomb only to see her sink 6 turns later. But, not all damage to japanese carriers is leathal, I have had KAGA limp home after taking 2 torpedo's that caused 50 flood damage, first send her to a port to pump her dry and then back to japan with 50 sys damage. A good tip for japanese players, ALWAYS have 2/3 AR's standing by to assist in the repairs, these ships are invaluable for damage controll......

29 November 1944:
At 0309 near position bearing 198 degrees 108 miles from Omae-zaki lighthouse struck by four torpedoes in the starboard side fired by USS ARCHERFISH. At first the damage - though severe -- is judged manageable, and the carrier is able to maintain speed and course. However, progressive flooding through incomplete fittings spreads, and a heavy list to starboard develops. Captain Abe orders the three outboard port boiler rooms flooded to take some of the list off. At dawn SHINANO had steamed 36 miles from where torpedoed and was still making 11 knots, when boiler feed water failed. At 0745 the SHINANO goes dead in the water. At 0850 HAMAKAZE and ISOKAZE take in tow, and building to 3 knots start to move toward Cape Ushio to beach her. However, the strain grows too great and the tow has to be abandoned. The list to starboard resumes and increases, and at 1018 Captain Abe gives the order to Abandon Ship. The YUKIKAZE comes alongside to starboard to remove the crew.

Sunk: At 1057 hours rolls over to starboard completely bottom up, then sinks by the stern in position 33-07'N, 137-04'E, taking down Captain Abe (by his choice), 1,435 officers and men, the 50 Ohka rocket bombs and 6 Shinyo suicide boats. Rescued are 55 officers, 993 petty officers and men, plus 32 civilians for a total of 1,080 survivors (including 3 of the Ohka pilots). In addition, the HAMAKAZE does recover the Imperial Portrait found floating on the sea.

19 December 1944:
Hit by one torpedo 1635 hours under the bridge from U.S. submarine REDFISH. UNRYU lost power and went dead in the water. While engineers extinguished fires and restored power in No. 8 boiler, carrier hit by second torpedo at 1650 hours starboard side, under forward elevator. Volatile cargo and av-gas set storage exploded, devastating vessel. Carrier sank quickly, in seven minutes with the loss of her captain, exec, navigator, and 1,238 petty officers and men. Only 1 officer. and 146 men survived the sinking to be rescued by SHIGURE which returned to Sasebo 22 December.



Some more critical hits I suppose.

It would be o.k. if the flood level will be 70 and the ship will sink

But if the ship suffers medium damage and sinks after three days - thats different.

Japanase were able to save seriousy damaged ships (mogami - midway, shokaku - coral sea, zuiho - santa cruz)

24 August 1942:
Participate in the Battle of the Eastern Solomons. At 0200 separate from CarDiv 5 and proceed southeast to launch strikes against Guadalcanal, convoyed by TONE, AMATSUKAZE, and TOKITSUKAZE. Two strikes launched against Henderson Field.

Sunk: At 1357 attacked by enemy aircraft (from USS SARATOGA) and received four bomb hits, many near-misses, and one torpedo hit. The torpedo floods the starboard engine room and the ship begins to list and lose speed. At 1408 turns north and attempts to retire as ordered by C-in-C. But though the fire was extinguished the list increased to 21 degrees, and the boilers and machinery became disabled. At 1515 Abandon Ship was ordered. During abandonment, bombed by B-17's but no damage received. At 1800 she capsized to starboard and sank in position 6-10'S, 160-50'E, bearing 10 degrees 106 miles from Tulagi. Seven officers, including her Executive Officer, and 113 petty officers and men are lost; Captain Kato Tadao and the survivors are rescued by AMATSUKAZE, TOKITSUKAZE, and TONE.

Maybe those 30 and 40 damaged ships are actually 70 that haven't quite gotten there yet...in the zen of the game.

From what I'm finding historically, maybe the japanese were just more suseptible to critical hits. So instead of designing a special critical hit code the designers opted for bad damage control.

I just listed NINE Japanese CV's sunk with comparable damge to the original post.

Here is a Number 10.....

25 October 1944:
Battle off Cape Engano in the Battle of Leyte Gulf: Air attack by planes from U.S. TF 38. At 0835 a line of three near-miss bombs or - more likely, torpedo hits - exploded against the hull on the port side forward abreast the No.1 elevator. Massive hull rupture resulted, and Boiler rooms No.2 and No.4 on the port side immediately flooded, and the carrier heeled quickly to a dangerous 27 degree list. But damage control was swift, and after the attack, the list was corrected to 15 degrees and CHITOSE remained underway. However the rudder had failed and it was necessary to steer the carrier by using the after engines. At 0855 the list to port increased again to 20 degrees, the forward starboard engine room flooded, and speed down to 14 knots. At 0915 the after starboard engine failed, and speed dropped still further. The carrier struggled on, but at 0925 the port after engine room flooded and she went dead in the water. Though the list was 30 degrees, RAdm Matsuda on HYUGA ordered ISUZU to close and attempt to take her in tow. This proved impossible.
Sunk: At 0937 CHITOSE lay right over on her port side and nosed under with the loss of Captain Kishi Yoshiyuki and 903 officers and men. The ISUZU rescued 35 officers and 445 men and SHIMOTSUKI rescued 121 officers and men.(Position 19 - 20' N, 126 - 20' E.)

You might note that most of those losses were caused by raging fires and subsequent explosions, not by uncontrolled flooding from the initial damage.

ORIGINAL: WhoCares

You might note that most of those losses were caused by raging fires and subsequent explosions, not by uncontrolled flooding from the initial damage.

The end result is still the same...a new reef somewhere in the Pacific.

And it all points back to bad damage control.

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And it all points back to bad damage control.

Alright then... if damage control code is flawed then we need the designers to rewrite the code that would make japanese CV's more prone to critical hits.

I just cited 10 examples where Japanese CV's were sunk with a comparable number of hits. If the Japanese damage control wasn't bad then they must be more prone to critical hits.

The bottom line ....as in history...as the japanese don't let your CV's get hit. Historically they sunk the same day... in the game the agony is prolonged a day or three.