Matrix Games Forums

It's late '43, and I've landed 3 divisions plus support on Guam. They took the base but mouse hover info reports 9 remaining Japanese units remaining with roughly 15k troops.

I had been making deliberate attacks and obtained consistent 10-14 to 1 attacks but can't seem to get these guys outta there. I then decided to let my troops rest up and resupply before we commensed mop up operations.

During this 3-5 day rest period I had 2 bomboardment TF's continuously pound the remaining enemy. There were some nice damage returns the first couple of nights, but after that I was lucky to achieve any casualties at all.

I then had a four division force, fresh, refitted and looking for a fight make a shock attack to clear out the enemy. Result a 0 to 1 attack, with equal casualties on both sides (minor casualties).

I've never had this problem before in the game, so I snuck a peak at the Japanese side (playing the AI) and sure enough there are 9 units with next to nothing left in them. The toughest unit looked like it had maybe 20 assault strength, compared to my four divisions that have at least 300 each.

Any ideas what is causing this or if it's just normal?

its normal.
lot of folks complaining aabout this.

Allied troop surrender in such situations, but Japanese resist few weeks. It takes a lot of timeto annihilate them. Thats common in the game.

I understand it as simulation of "guerilla" and "cleaning operations"

Quite normal. The Japanese were not ones to surrender easily. In my experience, I have found either they surrender quickly or remain for weeks. There is not much middle ground.

Also works for the Allies if they are not located at a base.

Admitedly, I would prefer it if there was a disablement/destruction penalty for an LCU not being able to retreat when it normally must. I currently have two whole Japanese divisions surrounded in China in one PBEM.....i'm getting good odds results but i'm losing more casualties than the trapped Japanese with impacted supply

I currently have an Indian brigade trapped in a non base mountain hex against 2 strong Japanese divisions. It’s been up against 10+ to 1 odds for two weeks now, but the Japanese (AI) are slowly getting destroyed with little casualties on the Indian side. I would evacuate the brigade if I could though, because this is destroying the AI's Malaya campaign. The brigades experience is now in the high 60's and rising [8D].

ORIGINAL: The Gnome


I then had a four division force, fresh, refitted and looking for a fight make a shock attack to clear out the enemy. Result a 0 to 1 attack, with equal casualties on both sides (minor casualties).

THIS IS THE REAL QUESTION..., How did the odds drop to 0:1? Yes the Japanese did struggle on long past any rational hope of accomplishing anything. But they also became rapidly inneffective. Some were still on Iwo and Okinowa and the Philippines when the war ended---but they weren't doing anything except raiding garbage dumps trying to eat. In real world terms, they had surrendered, but they were each individually their own little self-sustaining POW camp. The real odds here should have been about 100:1;
and the result the elimination of the Japanese units. A hundred individuals hiding in the bush and stealing garbage is NOT a "unit".

It is even historically accurate. Just look at Iwo Jima or Okinawa where it took months to get them all, even though the US "had" the base

ORIGINAL: joey

Quite normal. The Japanese were not ones to surrender easily. In my experience, I have found either they surrender quickly or remain for weeks. There is not much middle ground.

thats 1 hell of an understatement my friend[:'(]


japs pretty much fought to the death in every campaign

ORIGINAL: Xian

It is even historically accurate. Just look at Iwo Jima or Okinawa where it took months to get them all, even though the US "had" the base

exactly.

This very clearly is and always has been a bug. When you achieve the odds to retreat a unit, it retreats and takes heavy losses. But if the unit cannot retreat it, in certain cases, it becomes nearly invincible.

In every wargame I've ever seen when the rules say you retreat and you can't--then something bad happens to the defender. Either you surrender or at least you take extra losses.

I accept it as part of the game and don't get upset about it. But lets not rationalize it.

When they are on the verge of collapse I've seen the message "BANZAI CHARGE" on the combat report, and then it usually says "Unit destroyed" afterwards. [;)]

In my game with Simon I got 1 div + 1 RCT at Wake Island vs 100 Jap assault points + 1 base force, and the baseforce banzai charged, and died. [:D]

I have seen the Banzi charge on rare occasions. Maybe it only works on atolls.

pg 152 of the rules says if the unit is forced to retreat it goes into an elimination routine. Allied units surrender. Japanese units are eliminated or Banzi charge.

I don't see that happening, and my opponent is cleverly using it against me in China.

One tip, at Naga in the Phillipines I have the Japanese forced into the Jungle and out of supply. Because I have a lot of armor in my attacking force I inflict greater casualties than I take on deliberate attacks. Based on my experience in China the most efficient way to wipe out you opponent is to get your own army surrounded and out of supply. Once that happens you can really start killing.

ORIGINAL: moses

I have seen the Banzi charge on rare occasions. Maybe it only works on atolls.

pg 152 of the rules says if the unit is forced to retreat it goes into an elimination routine. Allied units surrender. Japanese units are eliminated or Banzi charge.

Atoll combat seems much quicker. In fact if anything too quick. I've not fought any Jap defence with higher than 100 assault points yet though.

Massive outnumbering (3 divs vs 1 naval garrison, say) means that the fight is over in 2 days.

Is it true that in one instance on Guadalcanal the Japanese lost 8,000 men to one of their stupid frontal attacks while the Americans lost only 96? I'm not talking about one of their Banzai charges. They had those and just plain frontal attacks believing that the spirit is superior than the machine gun and tank. But I swear I heard somewhere that they lost 8,000 men in a normal attack and only took 96 Americans.

ORIGINAL: Xian

It is even historically accurate. Just look at Iwo Jima or Okinawa where it took months to get them all, even though the US "had" the base

No..., it's historical Horshshit! The US HAD the base, and the Japanese were no longer
UNITS, that is the crux of the matter. In game turns, they didn't exist. They were just a local nuisance like rats and snakes and malaria. They were no longer a factor in the "Big Picture". Whether they "surrender" or just melt into the bushes, the campaign is over when they no longer have the ability to function as units. Or are we going to play WITP "man to man".

I agree with Mike

In game turns that group of 3 Japanese soldiers who came out of the Jungle in the Phillipines may be a unit but in the real world they are not.

Complaining about it is just griping though, the game is not going to change. I just re-inforced my troops fighting in the Naga hex and the odds went from 14 to one down to 1 to 1. Go figure. My supply situation is excellent and the Japanese have been in the Jungle for 17 days. That must have been enough time for them to build better fortifications. And factories to make the shovels they used to dig them.

I disagree that this is gripping. I think it is an out and out bug that needs to be fixed. My guess is, is that the surrender/retreat routine is not working properly when there is no retreat path. It works fine in bases hexes when there is a retreat path. It usually works fine in bases where there is no retreat possible. Where it seems to fall down most is when the unit is not in a base hex and has no retreat path.

As a clue, look at the following picture. This allied unit in question retreated from Kuantan towards Mersing. Then I took Mersing. Now I can't kill it. The funny thing is, it doesn't even show as controlling the hex it is in!!!

The fundamental problem is that, the surrender/banzai rules only work if the enemy unit OWNs the base at the time of the attack.

As I understand, you own Guam. But the Japanese units are in your hex (no ownership however). Frankly, it's going to take forever for you to kill them. Broken or feature, that's the way it is. Example, if you have units that have retreated from their base inot the wilderness, you will never surrender or banzai. Works both ways.

-F-

Look at it this way...more target practice and training for your troops.[:)] Besides, that wandering LCU in the jungle is not a threat to your confident Japs now....or are they?[X(]