Matrix Games Forums

We've run a number of tests and it appears that combat engineers are out of whack altogether as far as building. Apparently the game engine is only taking into consideration device slot 251 -Engineers and slot - 250 Engineer Vehicles when calculating build forts rate.

In one test I gave the 71st PA Army at Tugeraoo 600 squads "classified" as Type 24-Engineer squads in their device slot which was not device 251. I saw no change in the fort build progress. I also provided adequate supply and support for the unit as well.

The next question is does the game engine only recognize certain slots as combat engineers?

I post this for other modders to take into consideration. It seems that a lot of hardwork has gone for naught in CHS because of this...

I was under the impression that this had been discussed before and that it was known that combat engineer squads didnt effect builds. At least I never count them, seems to me someone once pointed out they are for combat. Why have 2 types and allow one type to serve both functions while the other cant?

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

I was under the impression that this had been discussed before and that it was known that combat engineer squads didnt effect builds. At least I never count them, seems to me someone once pointed out they are for combat. Why have 2 types and allow one type to serve both functions while the other cant?

I believe the manual is what caused the confusion...in particular the word also in the last sentence of the first paragraph...which led myself and other to the conclusion that 'combat engineers' were regular engineers and then some....

I'm one of the ones that was so fooled. Something in the statement:

All engineer squads and vehicles can construct and repair base facilities

seems to have led me astray. I am appropriately embarrassed for being so foolish.

I still seem to recall this discussion a long while back, I could be wrong of course as I am going from recollection. As I recall it was stated the two were distinct entities one for repair, the other for combat.

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

I still seem to recall this discussion a long while back, I could be wrong of course as I am going from recollection. As I recall it was stated the two were distinct entities one for repair, the other for combat.

Well...we're certainly aware of it now. Now to figure out what units need to be "fixed".

Yes this was discussed ages ago. Another problem is that the Base screen counts the combat engineers in its engineering total.

Yet another issue is that Motorized Support (device 253) is defined as Vehicle, which makes it act as engineering vehicles. Your tank units therefore become uber construction units.

Also, after looking, I would like to know how the game knows that Support should function as it does, since it is just defined as Squad, like everything else. Hard-wired slot number perhaps?

Also, after looking, I would like to know how the game knows that Support should function as it does, since it is just defined as Squad, like everything else. Hard-wired slot number perhaps?

The hard wired slot number is my guess. So much for doing mods...[:(]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Yet another issue is that Motorized Support (device 253) is defined as Vehicle, which makes it act as engineering vehicles. Your tank units therefore become uber construction units.

Are you sure of this? Some ART units have nothing but guns and motorized support (which I assume represents trucks and artillery tractors to tow the guns around). According to your post these units also have organic engineering capability?

Strange, but perhaps not totally wrong... I guess artillery should have some capability to dig in....

O.

Yes this was discussed ages ago. Another problem is that the Base screen counts the combat engineers in its engineering total.

Yet another issue is that Motorized Support (device 253) is defined as Vehicle, which makes it act as engineering vehicles. Your tank units therefore become uber construction units.

Also, after looking, I would like to know how the game knows that Support should function as it does, since it is just defined as Squad, like everything else. Hard-wired slot number perhaps?

This all completely sucks! I'm a relative late comer to the scene and I wasn't aware of these issues. As I posted earlier why bother modding ...[:(]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Also, after looking, I would like to know how the game knows that Support should function as it does, since it is just defined as Squad, like everything else. Hard-wired slot number perhaps?

The hard wired slot number is my guess. So much for doing mods...[:(]

I assume there is tons of hard-wired stuff in this game, perhaps less than 20% of that is documented (just a wild guess work on my part). And documentation is not always clear or correct.

Basically every special ability or special rule mentioned in the manual (and there is a mountainload of such cases) I guess is hardwired to corresponding slot number. Whenever designers came up with something like "equipment X should have special capability Y" the solution was to hard code the rule to slot number. No other way to do it.

Not to discourage you or anything, but I guess this ENG story is just the tip of the iceberg (even though you CHS guys already discovered half a dozen or so such icebergs - I give you that).

O.

Basically every special ability or special rule mentioned in the manual (and there is a mountainload of such cases) I guess is hardwired to corresponding slot number. Whenever designers came up with something like "equipment X should have special capability Y" the solution was to hard code the rule to slot number. No other way to do it.

I suppose they could have coded it to device Type instead of Device Slot. In other words Device Slot 251 - Engineers is a type 24 - Engineer. And Device Slot 267 is IJ Engineer Squad is a Type 24 -Engineer.

ORIGINAL: treespider
I suppose they could have coded it to device Type instead of Device Slot. In other words Device Slot 251 - Engineers is a type 24 - Engineer. And Device Slot 267 is IJ Engineer Squad is a Type 24 -Engineer.

Could work in this case (maybe) but you have more complicated rules like "Zero early war bonus rule" - one I don't like very much - that applies to just couple *models* of fighters in the game. Not all fighters, not even all Japanese fighters, not EVEN all IJN fighters...

Then, as counter-rule you have even stranger "AVG Zero bonus immunity rule" (rule I absolutely hate) that applies to certain unit (I guess regardless of the type of the aircraft they fly) etc.

I assume during development and testing, designers and betas came up with rules such as these every week or so (some rules, like AVG immunity rule, were applied as late as recent patches).

Obviously, dealing with such changes was/is most easily done by linking the slot number to corresponding routine in the code... frustrating for modders, but understandable from developers point of view.

Speaking of strange rules.... does the automatic creation of Japanese Vietnam militia when Chinese cross the border work in CHS? This may also be hard coded to certain hexes (that may have been moved in AB map).

O.

I'm only guessing about Support.

The Motorized Support thing is true though. The picture shows Rangpur, where an Indian Tank Brigade has been stationed for 3 whole days. Fort level was 0 when they arrived and there are no other LCUs present.

Here is the unit in question. I don't think it's the 12 eng squads doing that building ...

Here is the unit in question. I don't think it's the 12 eng squads doing that building ...




Attachment (1)

Is this at the start of the game? If so it should be easy enough to test this. by removing the 12 Engineers and the 9 Indian Engineers.

ORIGINAL: treespider
Is this at the start of the game? If so it should be easy enough to test this. by removing the 12 Engineers and the 9 Indian Engineers.

It's near the start. The point is, it's the start as far as Rangpur is concerned. There is no way 12 eng squads could build 2+ levels of fort in 3 days.

That tank unit, along with another similar (and the house base force), had previously taken Karachi from level 6 to level 9 port in about three weeks. At the time I was puzzled but it was only when I moved the units to empty bases that I worked it out.

The other thing to notice is that the Motorized Support is acting as support too. Which would seem to confirm my embryonic theory that it is slots 252 & 253 which perform the support function, regardless of what type of device they are.

The other thing to notice is that the Motorized Support is acting as support too. Which would seem to confirm my embryonic theory that it is slots 252 & 253 which perform the support function, regardless of what type of device they are.

I don't think that is as much a problem.

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Here is the unit in question. I don't think it's the 12 eng squads doing that building ...

I noticed that motorized support is classified as the same type of device as Engineer vehicle. Both are type 25. So i suspect the game engine in this case is treating them all as engineers for construction purposes...unlike Type 24 engineer units where only slot 251 is considered. I wonder what affect there would be to redesignate motorized support as either and AFV or a squad something other than vehicle Type 25.

[Edit:]To clarify we have two seperate things going on here...

In the first instance the game engine only recognizes slots Device 250 and 251 for build purposes. Device 250 -Engineer Vehicle is Type 25 -vehicle, Device Slot 251 -Engineers is Type 24 -Engineer. Other devices are Type 24 as well, but are not considered for build purposes (at least the new devices that are type 24) as engineers.

[Second Edit] In the second instance Device slot 250 is type 25 -Vehicle. Device Slot 253 Motorized Support is also Type 25 -Vehicle. The game engine appears to be recognizing devices with Type 25 units all as engineering vehicles. I just ran a test and this is NOT the case. I'm not sure what is happening in CaptCraft's example...perhaps the AFV's are functioning as Engineer vehicles?
I hope that clarifed things