Do Japanese players tweak industry or just leave it alone?

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Many of the people I talked (better say write) to on the forum in past 1+ years we have told me that they simply leave Japanese industry on default when they play as Japanese and rarely (or almost never) do anything with it.

So... I was wondering if this is really true...


I am most interested what experienced Japanese players do with "Aircraft Factories" that start scenario set to research new aircraft (that would come in months to come). As a _IMPORTANT_ note - all of them start scenario 100% _DAMAGED_!

BTW, I spend lots of time to make Japanese industry the way I want at the beginning and then I check it periodically to adjust it according to my needs / war effort / economic situation...


Leo "Apollo11"

[mogami]

Hi, I never touch RD factories. (since they don't really exist yet, they are there for the AI and future expansion)
I build the factories that begin size 0 (I think there are at least 3 arms factories in that status on turn 1)
basicly any factory that is not RD and under size 10 I will at some point expand to size 10. I build repair yards to size 30 or so in major ports and I build (convert AK) an AR for each of my major yards and a few for emergancy repair at advanced bases (Shortland/Saipan/Manila)
I increase aircraft engine production at places where it is below size 20 but not all at once and I convert the engines factories I will not use (almost all convert to Nakajima )
I don't spend a lot of time trying to optimize production just tweek it now and then to met demand. A lot of my aircraft factories produce as needed (I turn them off and on depending on pool size and loss rates) So I don't really need to expand most of them. Fighters mostly get expanded if the factory size is below 20.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I never touch RD factories. (since they don't really exist yet, they are there for the AI and future expansion)

So you just alow them to repair (from their initial 100% damaged state)?


Leo "Apollo11"

[CapAndGown]

Leo,

They are either fibbing or not very good players. Why would anyone allow a lot of HI to be spent building engines you can't use? Why would a player not increase the production of Nakajima engines when there are not enough to begin with? Why would a player let all of his R&D factories repair when this would suck his supply dry within a month or two?

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

Why would a player let all of his R&D factories repair when this would suck his supply dry within a month or two?

This is exactly whay I raised this question!

I still think many many players do not realise the above fact...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Oleg Mastruko]

1. R&D is useless.

2. I turn OFF the stuff I don't need.

Thus, I turn OFF R&D factories, or convert them to produce types I need.

If playing with free upgrades I usually need humungous (and unrealistic, and unhistoric [;)]) amounts of Oscars to convert my Nates, and Zeros to convert Claudes. Also, relatively large amounts of Emilys and Dinahs early on to boost recon. So I either turn R&D factories OFF, or convert them to produce the said models in large quantities for couple months then turn them OFF.

O.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

1. R&D is useless.

2. I turn OFF the stuff I don't need.

Thus, I turn OFF R&D factories, or convert them to produce types I need.

If playing with free upgrades I usually need humungous (and unrealistic, and unhistoric [;)]) amounts of Oscars to convert my Nates, and Zeros to convert Claudes. Also, relatively large amounts of Emilys and Dinahs early on to boost recon. So I either turn R&D factories OFF, or convert them to produce the said models in large quantities for couple months then turn them OFF.

Hey - that my secret war plan nobody suppossed to know! [8D]


Leo "Apollo11"

[mogami]

Hi, Because airfields don't have room for all the aircraft I could cram into them there is no reason to convert Nate to Oscar faster then normal production allows. (Oleg is a crammer so he needs more aircraft then I do)
RD factories do not repair automatically so they don't eat supply at too great a pace and I don't touch them because they should not even be on the map except there is no method of starting a factory from nothing. ( a good mod would have these factories set to size 0 at start so they could be built but not provide any extra production capacity at start. They exist the way they do for the AI. You can't build a new factory where none exists but you can expand one that starts size 0. All RD factories should be size 0 on Dec 7th but then the AI would never expand them.)
Personally I don't think the increased production is worth the supply cost early in war so I upgrade nates/Claude at a slower rate then other players might.
Because there are only 4 or 5 places recon are required early on I disband recon groups on turn 1 to get that many full size and by the time they return I have aircraft in pool. (by now I require a few more recon groups)
Betty/Nell chutai fill the patrol gap while Mavis/Emily are built. (No reason to over expand production of these because you only have a need to fill out the groups which again I disband a few on turn 1 to get full size and have in pool when they return.)
The Nate is able to defeat early war allied fighters if you don't put them up against AVG.
To discourage unescorted bombers from attacking you need fighter cap larger then 3-1 escort so the Nate prevents unescorted strikes on TF/bases the same as Oscar/A6M2 and since IJAAF Sentai contain 36 aircraft it is difficult for Allied player to get the required escort. (Nates work best when they simply prevent Allied missions from ever flying. This also has the nice side effect of keeping enemy bombers on ground for Japanese airfield strikes)

[Oznoyng]

I change and constantly monitor production of aircraft, I increase production of some models, etc. However, I have many, many aircraft factories sitting idle, not being repaired, etc.

For me, the main reason to increase production is to accelerate "Time to Market". I do not mean research, but how quickly the aircraft gets into all your on map Daitai. Take the A6M2, for example. Production starts with 104 arriving per month with a pool of 51. On map at start, there are units capable of flying around 350 Zeros equipped with Claudes instead. To equip all IJN fighter Daitai, it will take a minimum of 3.5 months at beginning production rates. When you account for losses, you've pissed away the Zero bonus before the Claudes are out of all your Daitai. I take 6 small factories and up them all to around 16. I then convert all my Claudes to Zeros and build up a decent pool of aircraft to equip replacements and handle losses, then I halt all my factories. In my game with Mogami, it is May of 42, and no A6M2's are currently producing on the map.

I do not research anything. All R&D factories are Halted and set not to repair at start. I repair the factories so that they are producing at my desired capacity when the new aircraft arrives. I leave all Aichi, Mitsubishi, and Nakajima production in tact. I convert some Kawasaki and all the rest to Nakajima, though I do not set them all to repair immediately (I monitor supply and set things to convert as I feel more comfortable with supply).

With PDU on, I halt production (but do not convert) on lots of inferior types.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Because airfields don't have room for all the aircraft I could cram into them there is no reason to convert Nate to Oscar faster then normal production allows. (Oleg is a crammer so he needs more aircraft then I do)

LOL a "crammer" - new WITP term, I should put it along with "Mine fanboy" in my sig [:D] Guilty as charged, though.... But that's not the main reason for the above - I cram the airbases with Sallys not with Oscars or god forbid Emilys.

Two things I can't stand to see in my games - R&D factories which are completely useless for "R&D" in human vs. human game, and Nates, which in WITP are modelled like flying coffins (I'd assume somewhat unrealistically). So the logical conclusion is to make more Oscars.

Oscars are also flying coffins vs any half-respectable opponent, but have solid range, are useful vs Chinese and Dutch, and some selected UK and C'wealth squadrons early on (Wirraways etc.) They are also good to provide some CAP and LRCAP over early advance bases and amphib conwoys to discourage those nagging Hudsons and Martins Allied player sends to harass the IJN.

What I am saying is - I need Oscars in some numbers in opening three months of the war. After that I won't need them for like 8-10 months until I am able to convert them to Tony or whatever. I need Oscars very early, or I don't need them at all. That's why I do an effort to mass produce them early.

I also convert ridicolous amounts of factories to produce Emilys. For some time in January I try to boost the Emily production to 60-80 per month. Utterly ridicoulus in the long run, but I really NEED those long range monsters ASAP to keep me updated on the enemy intentions. When I have enough I simply turn the factory OFF.

O.

[mogami]

Hi, Another factor I consider is my training program. Since I am going to require A6M2 groups as replacements I don't need to convert the Claude Daitai right away but simply retain them in Home Islands and convert as needed for replacements. I disband groups on turn 1 to get full strength (and put groups in pipeline for training in Mar when they return) So even though production of A6m2 is only 100 per month (I do increase the smaller A6m2 factories and convert Claude to A6m2 and I think I even convert the Nate factory in Manchuria to A6M2 so Eventualy I am producing close to 200 per month)
But with the low loss rate in first 3 months I have no reason to increase production from 100 to 200 (at a cost of 100,000 supply) early on.
Why spend 100,000 or more supply to build factories I then turn off?

And for me the Betty/Nell chuati have the range for Patrol so I don't need to over produce Mavis. (I do increase the transport version from size 2 to size 10 a little at a time)

[Apollo11]

Hi

ORIGINAL: Mogami

RD factories do not repair automatically so they don't eat supply at too great a pace and I don't touch them because they should not even be on the map except there is no method of starting a factory from nothing. ( a good mod would have these factories set to size 0 at start so they could be built but not provide any extra production capacity at start. They exist the way they do for the AI. You can't build a new factory where none exists but you can expand one that starts size 0. All RD factories should be size 0 on Dec 7th but then the AI would never expand them.)

Hmmm... I think you are mistaken here... [;)]

The RD factories start 100% damaged and their default state is "Repair" = YES so they _DO_ spend 1000 points of supply for _EACH_ point repaired _EVERY_ day for _ALL_ RD factories (until they are repaired)!

Talk about constant supply drain![X(][X(][X(]


Leo "Apollo11"

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

I also convert ridicolous amounts of factories to produce Emilys. For some time in January I try to boost the Emily production to 60-80 per month. Utterly ridicoulus in the long run, but I really NEED those long range monsters ASAP to keep me updated on the enemy intentions. When I have enough I simply turn the factory OFF.

I do this as well but I keep production for the Mavis (together with converted Emily on Jan 1942) to about 30.

Are there enough squadrons equipped with Mavis/Emily to require 60-80 production per month at all?


Leo "Apollo11"

[mogami]

Hi, They don't repair unless there is supply in the hex and they make a "die" roll to repair. I still have RD factories unrepaired in 4-43 (thats over 400 turns into game and I have no size 400 unrepaired factory at start) Once the model become avaiable to produce they don't make the "die" roll but only require supply in the hex. If you convert them to a model that can be produced currently they don't roll to repair any longer either but simply need the supply. So if you are changing RD factories you are increasing the supply required early in war.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, They don't repair unless there is supply in the hex and they make a "die" roll to repair. I still have RD factories unrepaired in 4-43 (thats over 400 turns into game and I have no size 400 unrepaired factory at start)

10000 "Supply" MIN at base and 1000 "Supply" for exach point fixed.

But I don't recall ever reading that you need positive "die roll" to repair it... I always supposed it is done deal if above requirements are met... interesting...


BTW, Japan produces 15000 "Supply" points each day (under good management) so clever usage of industry is not impossible... [:)]


Leo "Apollo11"

[Sharkosaurus rex]

The further into the future of the arrival of a new airplane type- the slower the factories for that type to repair. So a model arriving in 1942 will repair quicker than a model in 1945 (being repaired in 1942) but as the 1945 date gets closer, of course, the repair rate speeds up.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi

ORIGINAL: Mogami

RD factories do not repair automatically so they don't eat supply at too great a pace and I don't touch them because they should not even be on the map except there is no method of starting a factory from nothing. ( a good mod would have these factories set to size 0 at start so they could be built but not provide any extra production capacity at start. They exist the way they do for the AI. You can't build a new factory where none exists but you can expand one that starts size 0. All RD factories should be size 0 on Dec 7th but then the AI would never expand them.)

Hmmm... I think you are mistaken here... [;)]

The RD factories start 100% damaged and their default state is "Repair" = YES so they _DO_ spend 1000 points of supply for _EACH_ point repaired _EVERY_ day for _ALL_ RD factories (until they are repaired)!

Talk about constant supply drain![X(][X(][X(]


Leo "Apollo11"

Leo:

If I am not mistaken, you are charged the repair cost (1000 sup) as each factory point SUCCESSFULLY repairs. You are not charged for unsuccessful repair attempts. So the Frank "R&D" will cost you about 400k points (working from memory I don't remember the exact number of Frank factories) over the next three years. So the total cost is 400k, not something like 400k X 542 days (average) = 226,800,000 supply.

While I have not done specific testing, anecdotally I have left R&D alone, converted about 400 points of useless production into useful production and run out of supplies in January. In a different game, I left R&D alone, converted about 100 points of useless production into useful production (shut down the rest) and had plenty of supplies through 42.

In the both cases, only about 5 Frank points repaired, but all of the "useful production" points repaired. From this I concluded that it is only successful repairs that drain your supply. (I also had far more planes than I could use when I cnverted the 400 factories in addition to having no supply left to use them. As Mogami implied, what good are 1200 A6M2s in the pool?).

Edit: I knew I should type faster on a post like that [:)]

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Sharkosaurus rex

The further into the future of the arrival of a new airplane type- the slower the factories for that type to repair. So a model arriving in 1942 will repair quicker than a model in 1945 (being repaired in 1942) but as the 1945 date gets closer, of course, the repair rate speeds up.

Another interesting tidbit!

Where did you hear this from?

In manual (and as I recall here at forums) this "diminishing return" was only mentioned in regard actual reasearch (i.e. the RD factory produces points and for each 100 points one month can be deducted from arriving schedule) but it only works good if actual date is not that far away (i.e. long term research does not pay off - like researching 1945 plane in 1942 won't give much)...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Mike Solli]

I typically increase my A6M2 to about 200 and the Oscar I to 150. My other planes are focused to one or two by plane type:

IJA
DBs. I don't build any more. I don't like the Sonia due to it's lack of range so I usually upgrade to the Ki-30 or 32. Eventually, as my numbers dwindle, I covert to the Lily. I don't upgrade them to Sally (just me being anal, really). I love to use the IJA DBs against ships along the Malayan/Burmese coast at the beginning of the war. They take fewer losses than against land targets. Love them 100kg bombs.

LB. Lily (as above) and Sally initially then Helen. I shut off the Sally factory (400 is plenty in the pool). I increase the Lily and Helen production. I convert Sallies to Helens as numbers increase. Keep some Sally sentai to use up the pool of Sallies.

Recon. Dinah (of course), but I do use up the Ki-15s in the pool.

Fighters. Pretty much same as everyone else.

Transport. Ki-57-II and MC-21 (I think they're cool.) I phase out the others as soon as possible.

IJN

Fighters. Same as everyone else.

DB & TB. Not much choice. Upgrade when the next model become available.

Bombers. I convert the Nell factory to Betty. I do use up the Nells in the pool and, as they diminish, convert the Nell Daitai to Betties. Frances when they appear.

FP. Alfs and Glens. I use up what's in the pools though. Petes are not useless. Use them in ports/ships on ASW with distance = 0.

Transport. L2D2, L3Y, and H6K2-L.

Recon. C5N until C6N appears.

[Sharkosaurus rex]

The diminishing returns applies to the research speed and time to delivery date.

What I was saying is that the repair rate is affected by time as well but not in the same way as diminishing returns, as repairs are linear. I was commenting from observations from my own gaming and notes. Now I see that Mogami has said a die roll applies. You can see over time how current models repair immediately and with great precision. But research models take longer to repair the further in the future that arrive. So the 400 Frank factory won't repair in first 400 days. It will slowly recover in 1942, little bit quicker in 1943 and speed up in late 44, ready for show day. The small number of repaired factories will add their points to research if you have it turned on- and try their luck with 100 points.