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From my experience of big carrier batttles there seems to be only three possible outcomes (assuming it happens late 42 as most do)

a) IJN side launch huge attacks whilst USN does not launch at all = USN destroyed

b) USN launch huge attacks whilst IJN does not launch at all = IJN destroyed

c) Both sides launch but USN strikes are often unescorted whilst IJN launch uber 250 plane raids = USN destroyed

Has anyone ever had a "balanced" battle where both fleets lose 2-3 CV's each?

Nope, I've encounter 'a' or 'c' a couple of times. In fact 'c' happened to me a couple of weeks ago. Lost the Lex, Yorktown & Sara and about 99% of their air groups south of the 'Canal. And I could have sworn I had the 'react to enemy' turned off[:@]! The only time I've had the advantage was late in the game.

I have seen several battles that have the a )d answer both sides are hurt bad. The balance factor seems to be cap % Set too high is just as bad as too low.
Too high and there is not enough escort for your bombers to fly and though you chew up your attackers you still get creamed by the survivors. Too low and you have no effective CAP. However as the Allies I am willing to trade you carrier force for carrier SO I tend to set my allied cap lower I get coordinated strikes with fighter cover. I do get hurt when the IJN strike arrives but it still breaks the power of the IJN. Set your cap to 40 or 50% and see what happens.

I haven't experienced so unbalanced battles all the time. At the beginning the japs are better, because of the F4F-3 and more experienced jap pilots, but later in 1942 battles are more balanced. I play with allied DC on the Turning Tide scen, so when I went against Sho&Zui Ryujo with Sara, Big-E and Wasp I got in a decent strike with escort (CAP60%). I badly mauled Ryujo and one of the biggers got hit as well (can't remember). In return Big-E and Wasp were hit hard. Enterprise received only 2 250kg bombs, never-theless she suffered 37% sys and about 20% flooding and heavy fires, which went down together with flooding, but at the end sys damage reached 60!!! From two relatively small bombs this is a bit too much one would think. Later on Hornet arrived as well as Washington and I went on to harrass shiping between Truk and Rabaul (not a too good idea since Rabaul is stocked with Bettys and Nells, which I think are the best anti-ship planes in the game, they score every time at least one hit, even from 4-5 plane attacks...). I encountered Junyo with the twin large carrirs (S&Z) north of Tulagi. This time I had more luck and much more planes, because I put the Wasp's and Big-E's remaining fighter groups on the Sara and Hornet (they had only 24 plane VF squads this time). Also I had a surface group with NC&Wash with 6 CAs and several light cruisers and DDs under W.Lee charging after my carriers (they were off to Lugainville for replenishment and repair). Fortunately Henderson's planes also attcked, so in a concentrated attack I got Junyo and killed it. (She went down later from a submarine's torpedo). Saratoga got one torp and two bombs (and several 60kg ones) but she only suffered minimal damage (IIRC 12% sys and 5-6% flooding and small fire - later sys went up to 17-18) and was able to do ~30knots. I also damaged the two bigger ones, but they escaped. On the next turn Lee's battleline was sent ahead, which was a good idea, since Rabaul made it's usual strike. Fortunately it's planes came in 3 waves and 8 planes was the most in one wave, which was
no match for the two BBs AA arty. My carriers struck again, this time torpedoing both Zui and Sho. It turned out they were unable to launch or lost too many planes. After this turn I had to split Sara 'cos she slowed the Hornet considerably and I was low on attack a/c as well (fuel wasn't an isse, I had 8 oilers trailing me - they got the subs of the IJN, and Cimarron was hit by 3 torps but didn't sunk as she was able to reach Tulagi). So finally my battleship group located the limping carriers which were escorted by a lone Akitsuki class DD. It was a short range slaughter, all ships were killed by 16" shells . Next turn more planes attacked from Rabaul and I had 3 of my cruisers damaged slight to medium. The Hornet group didn't got a single strike while it sank 5 APs.

So now I'm at the end of November and I still have two carriers and two BBs running. With P-38s coming on line I don't think the AI has much chance.

[quote]ORIGINAL: Miller

From my experience of big carrier batttles there seems to be only three possible outcomes (assuming it happens late 42 as most do)

a) IJN side launch huge attacks whilst USN does not launch at all = USN destroyed

The japs had the element of surprise most likely and or you were further away
than they were so your SQDRN'S could not reach them.
also you may have been in a rain squal causing you to not launch.. ( too many variables to list )
surprise has a decent advantage especially for the japanese with there
long reach.
Fatiuge and morale also play some factors in an offbalance engagement
especially for the allies early on.
engaging japs early is not wise and you will see this more often than not.
Early on not allowing your SQDRN'S to fill out will leave the allies understrength
and you will have inferior aircraft and pilots.
Also unupgraded Capitol ships will cause this also as there is not enough AAA
to fend off the swarm of bees.


b) USN launch huge attacks whilst IJN does not launch at all = IJN destroyed

surprise....
We caught the fuel laden japs this way many times...


c) Both sides launch but USN strikes are often unescorted whilst IJN launch uber 250 plane raids = USN destroyed

Sounds like an early 42 engagement to me.....

Has anyone ever had a "balanced" battle where both fleets lose 2-3 CV's each?

I have had dozens of battles with this outcome although the fire control of the allies
might allow a CV to limp home with 70 - 90 percent damage thus rendering it useless
but the japs may not know that.



[quote] csatahajos
Enterprise received only 2 250kg bombs, never-theless she suffered 37% sys and about 20% flooding and heavy fires, which went down together with flooding, but at the end sys damage reached 60!!! From two relatively small bombs this is a bit too much one would think.

A (250kg) = 551 pound armor piercing bomb on a wooden flight deck with all the planes above and fuel down below will cause considerable damage not two mention 2 bombs..
She took them in the abdomen and got a belly ache me thinks...
In WITP if you happen to hit her magazine you may see her sink with 1 bomb...[:D]

[/quote

have a look at latest post our AAR -mid 43, sure look even to me
In PBEM you must , must be patient as allies!

thats it

lol

or, usn spots japs first


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/04/42

Air attack on TF at 34,37

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 31

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 15
SBD Dauntless x 45
TBF Avenger x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 11 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 15 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 23 damaged
TBF Avenger x 12 destroyed
TBF Avenger x 5 damaged

PO2 W.Chiyoshima of EII-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 2

LCDR E. Lindsey of VT-6 bails out and is CAPTURED

Japanese Ships
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CA Atago, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Ryujo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Akitsuki
CA Kumano


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 34,37

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 21

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 12
F4F-4 Wildcat x 9
SBD Dauntless x 31
TBF Avenger x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 5 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 6 damaged
TBF Avenger x 1 destroyed
TBF Avenger x 5 damaged

LT M. Kobayashi of DI-1 Daitai is KILLED

Japanese Ships
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Shokaku, on fire
CVL Ryujo, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Akitsuki


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 34,37

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 13

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 8
SBD Dauntless x 27
TBF Avenger x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 1 damaged

LT T. Hoashi of EI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 2

Japanese Ships
CVL Ryujo, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Zuikaku, on fire


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 38,37

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 33
D3A Val x 48
B5N Kate x 23

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 12
F4F-4 Wildcat x 38

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 5 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
D3A Val x 16 destroyed
D3A Val x 23 damaged
B5N Kate x 13 destroyed
B5N Kate x 12 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 3 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2 damaged

LTJG J. Halford of VF-6 is credited with kill number 2

LT T. Ema of EII-2 Daitai bails out and is CAPTURED

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 2
CV Saratoga, Bomb hits 3
CV Wasp, Bomb hits 2, on fire- minor wound


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 38,37

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 4
B5N Kate x 17

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 9
F4F-4 Wildcat x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate x 5 destroyed
B5N Kate x 14 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat x 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Saratoga
CA New Orleans
CV Enterprise, Torpedo hits 1 - minor wound, no real damage
CA Minneapolis


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 34,37


Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 11
F4F-4 Wildcat x 35
SBD Dauntless x 61
TBF Avenger x 18


no losses


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


IJN destroyed[:D]

Ryujo sunk

shokaku took 2 torps and is on fire and will most likely join ryujo
zuikaku on fire as well

Mitchers carriers are in pursuit...

Air attack on TF at 34,35


Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 12
P-400 Airacobra x 6


Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless x 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

[:D]

1 jap CVL sunk
1 CV heavily damaged
and another CV most likely heavily damaged

light damage to 2 USN carriers

definite tactical and strategic victory for the USN

hopefully this will bring shokaku to a dead stop, and the flt damage will do the rest

Air attack on TF at 34,31


Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 12
F4F-4 Wildcat x 38
SBD Dauntless x 35


no losses

Japanese Ships
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 16, on fire, heavy damage
DD Akigumo


whoooooooooo

now THAT will ruin a carriers day!

I've seen many where both sides were hurt badly, but the allied damage control saves the day[:'(] happy new year [;)]

meanwhile ive seen every possible outcome happen includung one time where every carrier sank that participated in the battle (US and japanese) - a total of 4 japanese and 3 US. man that was a battle!