Matrix Games Forums

Just for clarification:

Unless the specific formation has had a special class type added are the following unit classes identical as base classes?

001 - Infantry
029 - Ski Troops
040 - Heavy Infantry
051 - Light Infantry
071 - Guerrilla Forces
072 - Airborne Infantry
073 - Elite Infantry
074 - Bicycle Infantry
101 - Motorized Infantry
099 - Armored Infantry
107 - Scond Line Infantry
108 - Medium Infantry

Or is there some in gane engine differences?
If so what?

Ski troops are treated more like vehicles. They cannot assault anything.

Guerrilla and Special Forces can infiltrate, and Special Forces can navigate cliff terrain.

Airborne take less suppression from an airdrop.

I think Bicycle infantry can actually be immobilized due to breakdowns, IIRC.

The only difference for Elite and Second Line is elite get an Exp/Morale bonus, and 2nd Line get a penalty.




Goblin

Thanks,

ORIGINAL: Goblin

The only difference for Elite and Second Line is elite get an Exp/Morale bonus, and 2nd Line get a penalty.

Goblin

Is this with respect to units. I am not refering to the class value set at a fornation level in teh OOB editor just the basic unit class.
If Pl formation is set elite yes it gets a exp/moral boost. But that is a different setting to the basic class one.

It gets tricky with special code at the formation level vs class at the unit level. TIt is an OOB issue more than purchace issue.

I see what you mean. There may be no difference between the two then. Or there may be a subtle one I have not noticed.



Goblin

So Bicycle Infantry seem then to be like vehicles?
A sort of subset of a motorbike then?

I think, but dunno if they are treated like pack animals, motor vehicles, or something else. I think they can assault, unlike ski-troops, which seems odd to me if they can break down like a vehicle. Of course, I could be in error on the breakdown.


Goblin

I know I've had Motorcyclists break down (all 8 of them? [&:]), and I think I've had the same occur with Bicyclists, but I'm not so sure with them. I rarely use them.

I cant understand why Ski Troops cant assault any vehicles? And why it isnt changed (or is it hardcoded?)

If somebody has a sensible explanation to "non-assaultiness" of Ski Troops, please come forward and share it with me.

Motorcycle troops are an interesting problem. If you buy them for a long campaign, and then upgrade them to a different infantry type, they lose their transport.

For 8.3, an experiment was done to provide motorcycles as transport vehicles (they are in the Norwegian OOB). In this way, mounted infantry could fight dismounted (as was done in practice). However, recon/spotting ability is lost. As yet, no one was come up with a satisfactory resolution to this problem.

The use of motorcycles as transports, though, DOES resolve the TOE problem of 5cm light mortars as part of a German motorcycle rifle company.

havent played with them for awhile, but i believe bicycle troops can be destroyed like a vehicle, 1 shot 1 kill...weird


-jedi

From all this I have the following:

In the game from what I can understand there are the following "Infantry" types or classes as provided in the OOB editor.
I gather that some of these are just a convince for developing formations within the game.

[font="Courier New"]ser____Unit class as per _______inf____basic____spec____veh
_______Unit Page in OOB editor
============================================================
1______Infantry_________________Inf______B
40_____Heavy Infantry___________Inf______B
51_____Light Infantry___________Inf______B
73_____Elite Infantry___________Inf______B
99_____Armored Infantry_________Inf______B
101____Motorized Infantry_______Inf______B
103____Conscripts_______________Inf______B
107____Scond Line Infantry______Inf______B
108____Medium Infantry__________Inf______B
71_____Guerrilla Forces_________Inf______B_______S
72_____Airborne Infantry________Inf______B_______S
106____Marines__________________Inf______B_______S
29_____Ski Troops_______________Inf______________S
58_____Scout____________________Inf______________S
69_____Forward Observer_________Inf______________S
70_____Special Forces___________Inf______________S
49_____Motorcycle_______________Inf______________________V
74_____Bicycle Infantry_________Inf______________________V[/font]

My interpretation of these classes is as above.
That is a unit with just a B is a basic infantry unit and are all identical in there game operation. This does not include any “special” code that can be applied in the formation page of the OOB editor.
A unit with just an S has specific abilities applied due to its class alone.
A unit with just a V is possible treated as a form of vehicle, in that it can break down.
Now I suspect that the units marked with a B and an S are either one or the other. And I an not exactly sure which.

Does a basic unit classed as one of these, Guerrilla Forces, Airborne Infantry and Marines have specific abilities as based on just the class alone?
Again I am just looking at the class that is applied in the Unit page/tab of the OOB editor.

Guerrilla infantry are 'special' insofar as they can infiltrate.
Airborne infantry reportedly suffer less suppression when they arrive by parachute and therefore can be considered 'special'
Marine infantry has no special attribute that I know of.

Also, Engineer infantry is 'special' because of the minelaying and mine detection ability

ORIGINAL: Komentaja Nopanen

I cant understand why Ski Troops cant assault any vehicles? And why it isnt changed (or is it hardcoded?)

If somebody has a sensible explanation to "non-assaultiness" of Ski Troops, please come forward and share it with me.

It's hard-coded, as is their snow movement bonus. Why they can't assault is a mystery and possibly goes back to before Matrix had the code.

While they can't assault they can still attack AFVs, if you give them satchel charges for example.

Thanks, clears up that part.

AFAIK "Marines" and "Scouts" don´t have special hardcoded abilities. They´re just clones of standard infantry to improve formation granularity. Since you already added special infantry types like "FO´s" and "Motorcycles" ect. I would suggest to consider the "Inf-AT", "Crew" and "MG" classes as well to complement your list. Not to forget "Platoon HQ", "Cavalry" and "Engineers" as well.

Note to Panzer Leo´s H2H mod users: Unit classes in the game are just renamed standard classes. Check the OOB editor for the true nature of classes and names.

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Motorcycle troops are an interesting problem. If you buy them for a long campaign, and then upgrade them to a different infantry type, they lose their transport.

For 8.3, an experiment was done to provide motorcycles as transport vehicles (they are in the Norwegian OOB). In this way, mounted infantry could fight dismounted (as was done in practice). However, recon/spotting ability is lost. As yet, no one was come up with a satisfactory resolution to this problem.

The use of motorcycles as transports, though, DOES resolve the TOE problem of 5cm light mortars as part of a German motorcycle rifle company.

The only solution for the bycicle/motorcyle class problem would be Mike Wood (or anbody else) recoding the whole thing. I don´t think we´ll ever see this happen.[:(]

The "utility vehicle" (a truck class clone) classed MC in Norway OOB are just an expedient and can be used in human players hands only. Scenario makers can make best use of the stuff in norway OOB. IE Motorcycle Riders can be given the recon flag in Freds WaW Editors CSV file editor. Giving the "Transports" the Reccon flag makes no sense (attaching binocs to the bikes??)

However in generated campaigns the stuff can´t be used since availability is december 1949 only. I don´t see a major problem if you set availability to range from 1930 to 1949. Don´t have an idea though whether the AI picks (and misuses) any of these units then. Maybe I make this available as Mod over at the Depot.

Reccon alternative (why alternative??) is german cavalry which was standard part of early war german infantry divisions reccon elements! An infantry regiment had the "regimental horse riders platoon" (Infanterie-Reiter-Zug) to its avail, while there was an additional "squadroon" (a company) of horse riders as part of the divisions "Aufklärungsabteilung" (Reccon Btl.) available.

Btw, horse transports ("Cavalry Horses") are available in norway OOB too.

Scouts and FO's have improved vision. Scouts can 'spot' mines.
Also, small units (with 4 men or less) have improved ability to remain concealed.

Ok first of all what I am trying to do is pinpoint what classes that is unit classes are exact clones of the base infantry class, Class ID #1.

Yes some classes are infantry but they have "extras" that are extensions of the base class. Examples appear to be bicycle Inf, motorbike, ski troops, etc.

There are 113 unit classes in the game many are just clones of a base class. Others have extras to the base class.

What I am doing so far with teh infantry ones is to try to put them into either teh base class or into some "extra" class. The "S" class is just units who have extras but not necessary the same extras.

Some people know what the base class and clones are i am just trying to establish a public list of them.

ORIGINAL: Major Destruction

Scouts and FO's have improved vision. Scouts can 'spot' mines.

Hm..can´t find a reference anywhere. So a "scout" class unit in a formation with the recon flag (1) set has what improved visibility? Scout spot mines better than engineers? Or rather between infantry and engineers?? Same for FO. Beside decreased delay times for calling in artillery, the formation flag ist set as 1 or 11 as well. What would be the net improved spotting chances?[&:]

What about "crew"? I found that replacing the "crewmen" in its hardcoded slot (249) with a different infantry type unit (Ski troops IE) does not affect spawning of troops. Only observed difference is that the spawned crew has the (extra) abilities of the new class. Any idea?[&:]

ORIGINAL: Komentaja Nopanen

I cant understand why Ski Troops cant assault any vehicles? And why it isnt changed (or is it hardcoded?)

If somebody has a sensible explanation to "non-assaultiness" of Ski Troops, please come forward and share it with me.

Probably, "assault" supposes that infantrymen are climbing up the enemy tank trying to drop grenades down some hatches or something like that. Obviously you can't do this with your skis on.
Just my 2 (euro)cents