Matrix Games Forums

I thought I would start a new thread focusing on the unit depictions only.

Here is the color scheme I will try to implement for the major powers. I have tweaked the basic background colors for a couple of them from what CWIF used. That was so I could get a better contrast between the basic background color and both the dark interiors for the corps units and the light interiors for the divisional units.

The reason I say I will try to implement is that this was developed in CorelDraw and I am not so sure how the RGB values will translate when displayed on map using the program. For example, I could make all these colors look a lot different to the human eye if I replace the white paper with one of a pale yellow or black. The eye does all kinds of weird stuff when communiucating color to the brain.



The French divsional color is also what I will use for the artillery units (AA, AT, all artillery). The Communist Chinese artillery units will be colored half using their divisional color and half using the French divisional color.

When I get these new colors fed into the program, I will post some screen shots here.

I like it. I'll copy the RGB to my div game. [:)] Its been over ten years since I played WiF and still miss it! I even converted all the HoI counters to WiF colours.

How will you deal with German SS counters or German minor allies?

ORIGINAL: Glen Felzien

I like it. I'll copy the RGB to my div game. [:)] Its been over ten years since I played WiF and still miss it! I even converted all the HoI counters to WiF colours.

How will you deal with German SS counters or German minor allies?

There are 118 minor countries with units. They require more colors than the major powers - in order to differentiate them all, the icons use up to 4 colors. Chris had all these already done before I saw any of the code and I am loathe to even think about redoing them. I do have a comma separated file of them all with the associated RGB values.

As for the German SS and allies: "when in doubt try to duplicate the board game counters". It isn't always easy.

After settling the issue of interior colors for the icons, I want to work on increasing the contrast of the strength and movement numbers for countries with dark backgrounds. My latest and greatest idea for doing that is to leave the elite, white print units as they are ("The audience can hear Patrice cheering off stage left"). I am thinking of keeping the black font for non-elite units, but only for countries that have a light background. For countries with a dark background I will use yellow ("Loud moaning from off stage left"). The difference between yellow and white is pretty clear (at least to me). To code this I am thinking of just adding up the RBG values dividing by 3 and see if the average is above a certain threshold (say, 192). If the average is high, then the unit is bright and I'll use a black font. If the average is low, then I'll use yellow. The cleverness here is that this should work for all the 118 minor countries without having to type in RGB values for each of them individually.

Tomorrow I might have a different idea on how to solve the contrast problem (I have 4 possibilities ight now).

Just a word from off stage left [;)] to say that I would have prefered the Japanese being more red, more bright red (have I said : "As they are in the paper game" ???), and the Chinese more yellow, more bright yellow.
Otherwise the rest seem pretty good to me, the Russians maybe being to dark.
This said from memory feeling, without comparing to the actual counters or their scans on the screen.
Thank you Steve for the work !

Cheers !!!

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Just a word from off stage left [;)] to say that I would have prefered the Japanese being more red, more bright red (have I said : "As they are in the paper game" ???), and the Chinese more yellow, more bright yellow.
Otherwise the rest seem pretty good to me, the Russians maybe being to dark.
This said from memory feeling, without comparing to the actual counters or their scans on the screen.
Thank you Steve for the work !

Cheers !!!

When I hold the counter sheets (brand new, never been used, just opened last month) up to my screen I can see no difference between the red, the yellow, or the USSR brown of the counter sheet versus the same color on the screen. One possibility is: "Have you cleaned your monitor lately?"

You may be responding to the fact that the interior rectangles I am using for this color comparison are much larger than those for the actual units (on paper or on screen). Since the centers are darker than the basic background color, the whole image appears darker to the eye.

I think you have an oportunity to do much better than the boargame when it comes to minor units.

What matter with minors is not their color per se but cooperation rules. That is:
1. what major power they are aligned with.
2. a way to tell differentiate allied but not-cooperating minor units

To address these concerns, I would suggest to design flexible minor units colors. I would base the whole game design on the depiction of Germany's usual minors (Finland, Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria). That is:
a. Counter background = related major power
b. Numbers = related major power
c. Counter NATO background = minor power. Here, each major power would have a list of, say, 20 possible backgrounds you would use one after the other as minor are aligned
d. All letter text telling nationality

Application: Belgium. Drop their black color. If Belgium is aligned with Germany (uncommon but happens occasionaly), give their counters a German-grey background. Say Belgium is the 3rd minor aligned to Germany so far: the software automatically picks the 3rd "NATO background" compatible with German-grey color.
If Belgium is aligned with France, their outlook is now French-like. Etc.

This will be a nice clarification to the game. You can then apply the same idea to versatile territorials, partisans or to captured naval units. Some players have designed their own additional counters to address these issues and the only reason it's not in WiFFE is the cost and space/weight of additional counter sheets. Take advantage of the lack of constraints of MWiF [;)]

Besides, game testing will be easier: no need to check compatibility of 120+ colors against each other ("I can't tell the Liberian corps from the Aden territorial"), just check that you don't get mixed up in the major power's NATO background.

Hope that helps,

Daniel

ORIGINAL: WiFDaniel

I think you have an oportunity to do much better than the boargame when it comes to minor units.

What matter with minors is not their color per se but cooperation rules. That is:
1. what major power they are aligned with.
2. a way to tell differentiate allied but not-cooperating minor units

To address these concerns, I would suggest to design flexible minor units colors. I would base the whole game design on the depiction of Germany's usual minors (Finland, Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria). That is:
a. Counter background = related major power
b. Numbers = related major power
c. Counter NATO background = minor power. Here, each major power would have a list of, say, 20 possible backgrounds you would use one after the other as minor are aligned
d. All letter text telling nationality

Application: Belgium. Drop their black color. If Belgium is aligned with Germany (uncommon but happens occasionaly), give their counters a German-grey background. Say Belgium is the 3rd minor aligned to Germany so far: the software automatically picks the 3rd "NATO background" compatible with German-grey color.
If Belgium is aligned with France, their outlook is now French-like. Etc.

This will be a nice clarification to the game. You can then apply the same idea to versatile territorials, partisans or to captured naval units. Some players have designed their own additional counters to address these issues and the only reason it's not in WiFFE is the cost and space/weight of additional counter sheets. Take advantage of the lack of constraints of MWiF [;)]

Besides, game testing will be easier: no need to check compatibility of 120+ colors against each other ("I can't tell the Liberian corps from the Aden territorial"), just check that you don't get mixed up in the major power's NATO background.

Hope that helps,

Daniel

You offer some possibilities I will think about.

I would like to keep the national counters for the minors as is, prior to them becoming aligned. It is nice to scroll through all the units in the game, country by country, and see all the different colors. This also let's us use their national colors rather than just make them an appendage of a major power [I would like to sell copies of the game to people living in those minor countries - I don't want to annoy them before they have even started to play.]

I am not happy about a rotating set of colors either. A player would like to have a consistent coloring scheme for his counters. Whether you align Hungary before Finland or the other way around shouldn't affect what the counters for those countries look like.

However, the idea of using the controlling major power's colors after the country is aligned seems like a good one - for the reasons you gave. Of course, I have all this information readily available when the game is running, since it is needed to check the legality of moves et al. So the task is just to come up with a scheme for merging a minor country's starting colors with those of the controlling major power. Avoidng bizzarre color combinations would be the primary concern. German gray goes with almost everything, but the USA green and the Italian green could pose problems (to name but two).

Let me get some of the other loose ends related to counter colors out of the way first.

I have the divisional colors working, modified the colors for all the major powers, and the artillery colors right too. But I have 15 tasks remainnig on my to-do list for counter colors, and about half of them are multi-part.

I will post some revised screen shots tomorrow. I can't see straight any more tonight. Blink, blink, squint, squint.

About Daniel's idea of Minor country's counters taking the color of their controlling Major, I like the idea too, but I also like all the colors on the screen that differentiate all the minor countries' units.

One thing could be done to use a bit of Daniel's idea and also keeping the minor unit color, it is to color the bottom half of the counter the color of the controlling major power. It's not a real half, it is about 40% (see illustration).

I know there are already half colored counters in the game, when counters are loaned to another major power so that it is this other major power who moves the units (but still taking the relevant move from the original major power limit of actions related to its action choice).



Here we have a CW unit that will be moved by the French Player.

However, the idea of using the controlling major power's colors after the country is aligned seems like a good one

I like this idea alot, I always disliked having TERR in my forcepool of the opposing sides colour.
The same should go for captured ships.

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

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The same should go for captured ships.

Absolutely. A captured TRS (or other unnamed vessel) always presents lots of difficulty, especially if it is present in a Seabox along with ships of the old controller. It is so easy to overlook it and forget whose side it is on. Naturally, in a computer game this is easier to remember as the game forbids you to use/move etc ships that aren't really yours, but if it was possible to switch colours, so much the better.

ORIGINAL: Frederyck

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

The same should go for captured ships.

Absolutely. A captured TRS (or other unnamed vessel) always presents lots of difficulty, especially if it is present in a Seabox along with ships of the old controller. It is so easy to overlook it and forget whose side it is on. Naturally, in a computer game this is easier to remember as the game forbids you to use/move etc ships that aren't really yours, but if it was possible to switch colours, so much the better.

I already plan to help remove some of the confusion about the ships by having two sets of sea boxes for each sea area. The Aixs has a set of 5 sea boxes and the Allies have a set. So you will always know which side a ship is on regardless of the color. I intend to place neutral ships where they are likely to align (e.g., Italy in Axis).

WIF has no provision for recoloring units that are loaned to another player, only lend leased units. That system colors the central third of the unit according to the source country. CWIF has provision for coloring the bottom third of a unit that is lent, the color of the source country, and I haven't changed that code (it is only a line or two). While I am on this subject, the vertical stripe for flying boats no longer exists. Instead, flying boats have their naval air factor inside a blue rectangle.

So, let's set the flying boat issue aside as solved. That removes the complication of vertical and horizontal stripes on the same unit (i.e., a loaned flying boat).

There seem to be several different pieces of information we would like to convey using horizontal stripes:

1 - lend leased units

2 - loaned units (which major power moves the unit - may be temporary)

3 - aligned units (which major power controls the aligned country and therefore the unit)

4 - captured units (originally owned by another nation but now in the employ of a major power)

Examples:

1 - usually USA planes to CW or USSR

2 - CW units in France during 1940; Italian units in USSR; German units in Africa

3 - Rumania, Hungary, Finland to Germany; Netherlands, Belgium, Poland to CW; Manchuria, Korea, French Indo-China to Japan;

4 - Bearn to USA, Yugoslavian CA to Italy, French sub to Italy, Danish and Norwegian naval units to CW

As the code currently stands the solutions to these 4 caases are:

1 - central stripes added to unit to indicate the source country (they might want it back)

2 - bottom stripe added to unit to indicate controlling country (the control is only temporary)

3 - the original colors of the unit are unchanged; the countries themselves get half flags of the controlling major power to indicate their possession is through alignment

4 - the original colors of the unit are unchanged; I actually have been making changes to the code to accomplish this during setup of the later scenarios; it is a real pain because the country has either been conquered completely or partially and its units have been marked as removed from the game. I have to perform CPR on them to get them back. I have been preserving the original color scheme because I like the visual of the CW having naval units from a wide diversity of countries under its control.

That's the problem, the goals, and the current status.

Ideas? I'm going to work on other stuff while you thrash this out.

1 - lend leased units

It is "central stripe added to unit to indicate the source country" --> OK for me.

2 - loaned units (which major power moves the unit - may be temporary)

It is "bottom stripe added to unit to indicate controlling country" --> OK for me.

3 - aligned units (which major power controls the aligned country and therefore the unit)

It is "original colors of the unit are unchanged" --> OK for me, but could be the bottom third changed to the color of the controlling power, as for the point 2. In reality, point 3 (this point) is much like point 2, that is the units are from another country (major is point 2, minor is point 3) but are moved by another. The only difference is that in point 3, the unit count agains the moving country activities limits, and not in point 2. If you really want to differenciate them, make it that the top third of the counter changes color to be the same color as the controlling major power.

4 - captured units (originally owned by another nation but now in the employ of a major power)

It is "original colors of the unit are unchanged" --> I would prefer if the color of the capturing player appeared somewhere, why not the top third ?
It could also be the same as 1, except that the original country cannot claim the unit back, but for the control part, it is the same.

Here are a series of screen shots - one for each major power. The Communists are still in disarray. I'll show them to you later this week.

All these pictures are not as crisp as I see them when playing. The various format conversions cause distortions.

What I am showing here are the land units at high resolution. Th planes and ships will be redoone incoporating most of the board game counter graphics.
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I am pretty happy with the Germans. The white on grey and black on grey are both legible. The division, corps, marine, and para interior colors are visibly different. The artillery match the para (as discussed in an earlier post).

The 6-1 artillery unit with the impossibly long name has to get fixed.

The Berlin militia neds to use a different color for the M (this comes up for other units later).

The naval air in the upper left corner is a flying boat and that is indicated by the blue square for its naval air value.

Nationalist China also is looking pretty good.

The white lettering for the 7-3 is too hard to read. Note the outlining of the 7-3 to make it legible against the light background color

Japan is mostly ok.

The dark interior of the corps sized units need to be lightened a little.

The M for both types of militia units look good.

The Commonwealth looks very good.

I might adjust the M in the middle of the white print militia. Most of the white print militia for all countries have this problem and I will probably make a single adjustment that will affect them all, rather tha tweak each country one at a time.

Other than that, I see nothing wrong here. Note that the air landing unit uses airborne coloring.

Wow... [&o]
I could say nothing more, but as I am here to help making this better, let's go.

The 6-1 artillery unit with the impossibly long name has to get fixed.

Can't you make long names write on 2 "lines" ?
Or, you could have an extra field in your counters database : The displayed name.
You would have the designation, which would be the real WiF FE name of the unit, and the displayed name, who would be different only on the counters who have a too long name. The Counter would then only use the display name.

The Berlin militia neds to use a different color for the M (this comes up for other units later).

Yes. Why isn't it red, as on the real WiF counters ?

The naval air in the upper left corner is a flying boat and that is indicated by the blue square for its naval air value.

I would prefer the vertical line, but I can also live with this.
However, could you make this color be an exact match of the color used for the sea ?

Also, it would be nicer (to my eyes at least) if the squares were rounds (around factors & range) as Daniel already said (it was Daniel ?), and if the squares or rounds didn't touch the unit square in the center of the counter. For example, the square around the "6" of the mighty rail gun could be 1-2 pixel closer to the "6", couldnt' it ?

Thanks for the work !!!

I would love to leave in Hawai just to come at your house and work with you when I see this !!

Cheers !

Patrice

In general, the USSR looks good.

There are the leaders with the long names to figure out a solution for.

Perhaps the center of the divisional units is too orange?

Perhaps the basic background color is too dark?

What do you think?

The French have a few problems.

The disappearing M in the white print militia.

The missing letter in the name of the infantry HQ. (Patrice, any suggestions, or should I just use an e?)

The white lettering on the elite units is going to disappear when the screen is zoomed even 1 level.

The coloring for the French divisional units is what is used for airborne units for all countries. That means that the French airborne and divisional units are not differrentiated by color.

The white lettering for the 7-3 is too hard to read. Note the outlining of the 7-3 to make it legible against the light background color

Frankly, I think that the color of the XXX and of the designation should be black all the time.
Who cares if it is not readable on dark counters ?
Just make it another color, red or white, for the black counters (Afghanistan, Belgium & SS units), as in the paper game. Who cares if the XXX & designation of those is written red on black ? Red on black is still readable.
But I would prefer if all the designatins & XXX of the same country were the same color, I find it ugly in the Chinese case that the white print has his designation & XXX white instead of black.

The outlining around the 7-3 is just great. Do not change that !!! [:D]