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War in Europe 1939
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:08 pm
by Jonny_B
[8D][8D]
I have always enjoyed playing Witp
Even with the games few problems (any complaints, design your own), this is my favorite strategic war game of all time.
Still, with an artificial engine already in place, a screen that can be completely redesigned, why hasn’t there been a new game called
War in Europe 1939
using witp internal features
Seems only the static data base might be an issue.
Anybody have any answers ????????????
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:15 pm
by mc3744
This topic has been discussed MANY times [;)]
My understanding is that there are two main reasons:
1) War in Europe would be much more ground focused and WitPìs engine is mediocre (at best) at handling ground combat and movement.
2) Money: the development of such a complex game is expensive and we crazy grognards [:D] are but a small fraction of the gaming public.
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:19 pm
by Banquet
If you want that I'd recommend HoI II. It's got an AI that romps all over WitP and has a land combat engine that works well for the scale.
I know it doesn't have the detail of WitP, and purists will never accept the fact that once you start playing, history can go pretty much out the window if you force it that way, but I'd far rather play it's engine for a European theatre than the WitP engine.
HoI II and WitP are the 'big two' for grand strategy wargaming at the moment. WitP, with it's faults, works best in the Pacific Theatre.. it just wouldn't work in Europe.
My opinion [:)]
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:19 pm
by Jonny_B
Mr mc3744
The ground combat would need a better combat screen, since that was the main form of combat in Europe
still it wold be nice to have a couple of panzer Blitzkriegs.
Oh ya
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:21 pm
by Jonny_B
Mr Banquet
I play HoI 2, I like the game it is a change
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:25 pm
by Banquet
When the 1.3 patch came out I played it non stop. The AI has been improved to the point that although it's not without faults, it's outstanding, imo.
My 5th game was as Japan, and from there I couldn't help thinking of WitP and how it was so much better for the PTO.. so I started playing WitP again.. I keep coming back to both games. They're both special in their own way.
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:26 pm
by mc3744
Yes panzers would be nice [:D]
But in war in Europe I'd want to be able to handle panzers the way I handle airplanes in WitP.
If you think at the importance of the T-34 on the eastern front or the Matilda in Africa.
Industry and production centers would also need a lot of work, not to mention the supply system. You'd need some form of land cargo, WitP system is just too 'primitive' to handle supplies on long ground distances.
I prefer WitP to HOI II a hundred times still HOI II is closer than WitP to War in Europe ... but still way too far, unlike WitP for the Pacific, IMHO of course.
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:31 pm
by Jonny_B
Mr Banquet
The biggest complaint I have about HOI 2 is the air combat features or lack of them
The pictured commanders and there abilities is rather cool
However, like you I always come back to witp
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:12 pm
by Arstavidios
I played HOI for quite a while, a lot of interesting features but too many things just do not work. So overall a lot of frustration and I gave up most games in disgust. HOI2 improved some stuff but not enough, so I did not buy it. I hope the game will be improved as there are many good things in it, but I'm not sure it will happen.
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:27 pm
by Banquet
ORIGINAL: Arstavidios
I played HOI for quite a while, a lot of interesting features but too many things just do not work. So overall a lot of frustration and I gave up most games in disgust. HOI2 improved some stuff but not enough, so I did not buy it. I hope the game will be improved as there are many good things in it, but I'm not sure it will happen.
You should try HoI II patched to 1.3, or at least check the forums. I have no idea what you feel should be improved (lots of things!) but I can tell you it's so much more advanced now.
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:14 am
by Jonny_B
Mr Arstavidios
The first HOI sucked really bad
HOI 2 is a great move forward on all levels
Still you must install the two patches for even better game play
However this game will never rival witp
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:23 am
by Sarge
ORIGINAL: Jonny_B
Anybody have any answers ????????????
The Ground Combat system is a BIG one [;)]
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:39 pm
by Arstavidios
ORIGINAL: Jonny_B
Mr Arstavidios
The first HOI sucked really bad
HOI 2 is a great move forward on all levels
Still you must install the two patches for even better game play
However this game will never rival witp
Hi,
The problem with HOI is that is was designed as a WW2 mod for HOI. Not enough time into tweaking the engine in depth. Many of the ideas were great, but unfortunately were not developed enough.
I agree that HOI2 improved many things and that's a good step in the right direction, but a lot of things have been left untouched or still need more improvement and more than patches are required IMO, moreover many of the good ideas from HOI have been given up instead of being developed. I believe HOI can become a great WW2 game but it requires a lot of redesign effort of most of its aspects and I don't think the design and development resources are available.
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:00 pm
by Feinder
Ground combat...
Production...
Ground combat...
Ground combat...
Production...
Ground combat...
Ground combat...
Ground combat...
Ground combat...
Production...
Ground combat...
Ground combat...
Ground combat...
Ground combat...
Ground combat...
Ground combat...
Production...
Production...
Production...
Production...
-F-
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:06 pm
by Gen.Hoepner
Mike Wood is working on War In Russia...that will be my LAST game probably[:D]
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:15 pm
by Mr.Frag
Mike Wood is working on War In Russia...that will be my LAST game probably
Never say die ... someone will screw up in the hospital and keep you suffering longer [:D]
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:26 am
by Treetop64
It would be neat if there was an Atlantic naval sim on the same page as WitP that allowed one to play as the Kriegsmarine, and actually get the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen deep into the atlantic to do some commerce damage. Or, alter the fate of the Graf Spee.
As comparitively weak and unprepared for the war as they were, the German navy took on some bold missions, and (with the exception of the Tirpitz) kept their capital ships pretty active.
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:47 am
by Redd
ORIGINAL: Jonny_B
Mr Arstavidios
The first HOI sucked really bad
HOI 2 is a great move forward on all levels
Still you must install the two patches for even better game play
However this game will never rival witp
Mr Arstividios, I read your post at least half an hour ago, and I haven't been able to stop swearing at my monitor ever since. Not at you, of course, but at the travesty that is HOI II. I feel cheated by Paradox on this one more than any other game that I've ever bought (and I own many worthless titles).
HOI I had it's shortcomings. Of course it did. They converted EU II (you had to pay for that one twice as well) into a WW II game, and when they ran out of billable hours they released it. Fair enough, everbody's gotta eat. Then they converted it to Victoria to fill in the timeline gap between EU II and HOI I. I bought that title mostly to support Paradox, but I was quite underwhelmed.
Then they let out that the boys were workind on HOI II. Everyone on the forum was ecstatic. Paradox forums are great, much like this one. There were at least as many calls on that board for a second coming as there were on this one. Mods are numerous, and Paradox goes out of their way to export variables so that people can monkey with the system. Not just moderators show up, but the guys writing the code show up and answer questions ( and on many occasions even ask some ). Patches and bugfixes are legendary in their proportions. So there was every reason to believe that HOI II would be the next evolution of a game that showed lots of promise, but was obviously in need of more developement time and money.
But oddly enough that's not the way that it went. For some reason they decided to go for some kind of cosmetic makeover, but they didn't really tackle any of the serious issues that were holding the game back. IMHO they squandered their time and money on incontsiquential (sp?) BS when they should have been in the trenches slogging through the hard stuff and turning that game into something that they could have been truly proud of. Unfortunately, after forking over my hard earned cash, I was left with EXACTLY the same bad taste in my mouth as I got from the first release.[:-]
But to get back to the original question of the thread, the reason why they can't make the game is because it's not economically viable. The first guy to show up with $60k to burn (and a legitamate plan) gets to call the shots.[8D]
Wait a minute, thats for WITP II. For WITP in europe it's probobly more like $250k. (And a serious plan).[&:]
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:07 pm
by TulliusDetritus
Do not forget Matrix game "Battles in Italy". There is a mod which covers the european (Russia included), mediterranean fronts. The scenario starts just before Barbarossa. I bought the game and installed that mod, in fact.
See this link:
http://www.ssg.com.au/Run5/scenarios/Europe.htm
P.S.:
I am with Hoepner. The next WIE will possibly be my last game [:)]
RE: War in Europe 1939
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:23 pm
by Tristanjohn
ORIGINAL: Redd
ORIGINAL: Jonny_B
Mr Arstavidios
The first HOI sucked really bad
HOI 2 is a great move forward on all levels
Still you must install the two patches for even better game play
However this game will never rival witp
Mr Arstividios, I read your post at least half an hour ago, and I haven't been able to stop swearing at my monitor ever since. Not at you, of course, but at the travesty that is HOI II. I feel cheated by Paradox on this one more than any other game that I've ever bought (and I own many worthless titles).
HOI I had it's shortcomings. Of course it did. They converted EU II (you had to pay for that one twice as well) into a WW II game, and when they ran out of billable hours they released it. Fair enough, everbody's gotta eat. Then they converted it to Victoria to fill in the timeline gap between EU II and HOI I. I bought that title mostly to support Paradox, but I was quite underwhelmed.
Then they let out that the boys were workind on HOI II. Everyone on the forum was ecstatic. Paradox forums are great, much like this one. There were at least as many calls on that board for a second coming as there were on this one. Mods are numerous, and Paradox goes out of their way to export variables so that people can monkey with the system. Not just moderators show up, but the guys writing the code show up and answer questions ( and on many occasions even ask some ). Patches and bugfixes are legendary in their proportions. So there was every reason to believe that HOI II would be the next evolution of a game that showed lots of promise, but was obviously in need of more developement time and money.
But oddly enough that's not the way that it went. For some reason they decided to go for some kind of cosmetic makeover, but they didn't really tackle any of the serious issues that were holding the game back. IMHO they squandered their time and money on incontsiquential (sp?) BS when they should have been in the trenches slogging through the hard stuff and turning that game into something that they could have been truly proud of. Unfortunately, after forking over my hard earned cash, I was left with EXACTLY the same bad taste in my mouth as I got from the first release.[:-]
But to get back to the original question of the thread, the reason why they can't make the game is because it's not economically viable. The first guy to show up with $60k to burn (and a legitamate plan) gets to call the shots.[8D]
Wait a minute, thats for WITP II. For WITP in europe it's probobly more like $250k. (And a serious plan).[&:]
That pretty much sums it up. You have Paradox pegged accurately, a company that's not all bad, not all good, a kind of mixed bag of delicious ideas often foundering on the rocks of jagged implementation, and while no doubt much of this owes to insufficient funding, suspect management of these projects plays a role, too. Also, I've always wondered about these wargame business plans themselves. Who buys the games we speak to (in the main), and wouldn't these people pay more for better product up front? I've always said that I would. Would you?
Anyway, and as you rightly point out, at least with HOI games much is amenable to change, with version 1.8 of the Total Realism Project (pretty good work, that) due out this week according to information posted on that website. (And I wonder how many European players are
not downloading that mod because of the Nazi flags.)
Have you tried Gary's
World at War? If so, how do you view that product all around vis-a-vis
HOI II?