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I think that the DC totals for escorts need to be adjusted to accomodate the new ASW model. Since we are seeing individual DCs being dropped (not patterns which I adjusted the ammo to simulate to help alleviate the uber ASW model we previously had), we need to adjust the ammo loads to total individual DCs per DC Rack and Y/K gun (including reloads where applicable and wartime DC ammo increases to refits).

Mechanics issue. I also think the number of racks should be multiplied by the number of charges dropped in a pattern (4?) because during each run, only 1 DC per rack is being dropped. K guns are OK as these need to be reloaded every run. Needless to say, if this is done, the ammo would have too be divided among the racks.

This will increase the lethality of surface ASW somewhat but I think it could use it with new model [:D]. Definitely will help the Japanese.

I also think Japanese subs need their torp tubes divided like that done to the ten tube Allied subs as the I Boats are still firing 8 torps at a freighter for example.

Couple of good ideas - let me know when you are done...

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Couple of good ideas - let me know when you are done...

I need someone with access to some decent sources. Mine are in storage.[:(] I'll do what I can using the web but there will undoubtedly be some holes.

While there were very unusual cases of dropping several depth charges from a rack, the normal case was to drop only two in a run. That is, each rack would drop early in the run, then the K guns (or in USN Y guns) would fire, then the racks would drop one more time. This resulted in a more or less circular pattern, centered on the point the submarine was estimated to be in at the time the charges detonate. Since the submarine was probably not in the very center of the pattern, it was hoped that one of the charges in the "circle" might be close. Another variation would be to drop a third charge - in the very center of the pattern. What this means is that, if code has DC racks firing only one DC per rack, the number of racks should be doubled, but the number of K guns should be kept the same. For Y guns it might be either - depending on wether or not they use one or two charges - but assuming it also is only 1 - double Y guns too. This is an Allied thing only - Japan didn't use them.

The problem is that there are other weapons - and they are not in the game. Short guns, ASW rocket projectors, and the larger ASW mortars need to be added as devices for Japan - and maybe special "guns" for ASW rounds from regular guns. This is hard - figuring out the accuracy is going to take work. But zero is wrong - and that is what we have now.

What the hell are K guns?

K Gun Pictures

Is it official name for this kind of weapon? I would call it a depth charge thrower....

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Couple of good ideas - let me know when you are done...

I need someone with access to some decent sources. Mine are in storage.[:(] I'll do what I can using the web but there will undoubtedly be some holes.

I'll be happy to look stuff up for you if you want, Dirk. All I have at home is my set of Conway's, plus Jane's (which is hopeless). Tell me specifically what you need.

Your best source for US Destroyers is Friedman's US Destroyers, an Illustrated Design History.

Sorry, mine in storage right now too....

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

Is it official name for this kind of weapon? I would call it a depth charge thrower....

It is indeed a type of depth charge thrower, but a specific type. Here is another, the "Y" gun. The picture is from:
Naval Weapons
which is a large site - I included a copy of the picture for convenience.

What the hell are K guns?

Imagine a Y gun with only one arm fitted with a Depth Charge. In its original form there was a supporting member - so the thing looks something like a K - particularly when not fitted with a DC. Anyway, K guns are the second most common way to deploy depth charges. Y guns are simply more efficient K guns which fire two DCs at once - in opposite directions. If a ship has two DC racks, these drop a charge each first. Then one Y gun (or a pair of K guns back to back) fire a pair of DCs to the sides. Then another Y gun fires another pair. Then the racks drop again. This way you have made a pattern something like this

+ + Starboard charges from guns

+ + Starboard charges from stbd rack
+ + Port charges from port rack

+ + Port charges from guns

<------ Direction of ship movement

The "datum point" - the estimated submarine position at the time the charges are set to go off - is in the center of the pattern. Note this is a pattern of eight charges - one of the first effective depth charge patterns.
Eventually some US DEs carried up to 120 DCs and might drop patterns two or even three times this number.

The graphic did not work - it should be a circular pattern.

Not sure on the accuracy, but here are some numbers I have for escorts:
# of DC's carried by class
Flower: 70
Black Swan:100+
Bangor, Bathurst, Algerine: 90
River: 200
Captain: 200+ (same for US DE's???)



Source: The Encyclopedia of Weapons of World War II by Chris Bishop

Innocent question: Was the Hedgehog used in the Pacific ?(Don's site sez it was used more often by the USN than by the Brits (!), but it does not indicate which theatre it was used in.)

Not sure on the accuracy, but here are some numbers I have for escorts:
# of DC's carried by class
Flower: 70
Black Swan:100+
Bangor, Bathurst, Algerine: 90
River: 200
Captain: 200+ (same for US DE's???)

US DEs eventually carried 120 DCs which were dropped in patterns of 10 - 4 from Y guns to the sides and I assume 2 from the racks at the beginning - 2 in the middle and 2 at the end of the pattern. This would be just about optimum - dropping more would not matter UNLESS somehow they could be set to a different depth - which might be possible if you had more Y guns or K guns.

Innocent question: Was the Hedgehog used in the Pacific ?(Don's site sez it was used more often by the USN than by the Brits (!), but it does not indicate which theatre it was used in.)

It would be hard NOT to use Hedgehog in the Pacific - since it became a standard weapon on some classes.

Hedgehog (and Mousetrap) are very interesting weapons in two ways:

1) They ONLY go off if they hit a target (or hard bottom) - so you know if you hit something - not the case with Depth Charges

2) They work at ANY depth - you do not set a depth for the attack - again not the case with Depth Charges.

On top of that, they are "ahead throwing weapons" - so the time between deciding where to put your pattern and actually hitting the water is less. This time is critical - since the submarine might maneuver - and the more time you give it the more likely it is not at the "datum point" (ASW terminology for where you think it is).

The British and Japanese used ASW Mortars in a similar way - with ALL these same advantages - except the British ones got very big compared to other weapons - and probably were more lethal. The Japanese also had rocket projectors - probably the inspiration for the Russian post war systems.