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Ok I am just wondering what are some of the things from WITP that do not work for WPO?

1. For me dedicated ASW groups trying to hunt down subs have been very deadly to the hunters. I have lost 15 MSW's and 3 or 4 Destroyers to Jap subs . These units were not escorting cargo ships they were dedicated to trying to destroy submarines. Likely as not they end up getting torpedoed rather than doing any real damage to the subs.

2. Surface Combat - do not disregard TankerAce's tutorial on TF composition.

For me dedicated ASW groups trying to hunt down subs have been very deadly to the hunters. I have lost 15 MSW's and 3 or 4 Destroyers to Jap subs . These units were not escorting cargo ships they were dedicated to trying to destroy submarines. Likely as not they end up getting torpedoed rather than doing any real damage to the subs.

Definitely agree with this one.

In WITP you send out sub hunter ASW groups. In WPO I basically use the ASW assets as convoy escorts and do not worry about trying to get the subs. My Air assets are still effective in ASW but have short range.

Do not get me wrong I am not saying ASW is broken, just different from WITP, so different tactics.

The most damage my subs take by far is from aircraft

So far in my Terrible Swift Sword game 3 of the 4 subs I have lost were sunk by air. So it is powerful but short range and easy for subs to avoid if they are careful. Of course sometimes you have no choice if you are going in to scout around.

Well I've become a bit addicted to scouting round bases after I hit three Jap BBs with fishes in the space of about ten days[:)]

ORIGINAL: Mike Carroll

Ok I am just wondering what are some of the things from WITP that do not work for WPO?

1. For me dedicated ASW groups trying to hunt down subs have been very deadly to the hunters. I have lost 15 MSW's and 3 or 4 Destroyers to Jap subs . These units were not escorting cargo ships they were dedicated to trying to destroy submarines. Likely as not they end up getting torpedoed rather than doing any real damage to the subs.

2. Surface Combat - do not disregard TankerAce's tutorial on TF composition.

1. As to the dedicated ASW groups ... I find that they do work ... you will take some losses .. but you need to increase EXP to begin to turn the corner ... and also operating under airsupport helps. So this actually is an example of something that does work per WITP .. but fortunately doesn't work too well - as it does in WITP. In WITP airsearch and ASW forces are so strong that can sink all enemy subs of whatever flavor, very quickly.

2. Surface combat, I don't know if this has been changed vis-a-vis WITP .. but in WITP to number of times I want to have multiple surface TFs in the same hex is rare ... so I just assume I'm finally learning how it works .. but that it also works this way in WITP ...

But some other differences I see ...

3. Subs are subs ! in WPO ( thanks to changed code and far less air search ).

4. Ability to sneak around close to enemy bases ( due to lack of air search ).

5. In my games I see a reversion to more ancient blocade tactics ( like around Manilla ) were surface forces try to prevent supply and reinforcement ships from entering ... and blocade runners try ( and usuallly succeed ) in breaking the blocade, in conjunction with surface forces sortie-ing from Manilla to support the blocade runners ... this is quite different and fun ( if frustrating ) !!

6. The first time I played as Allies against AI ... I tried to build up bases in the same areas I would have in WITP ( Samoa, Fiji, New Zealand, Darwin, etc. ) then realized these were way to far away ... and because the ships have much shorter ranges, I didn't need to be this far away ... this was one of my first "you're not playing WITP anymore" revalations ...

7. Can't do opposed landings as easily ... like Wake can be captured by a couple of Bns in WITP .. not in WPO ... high rate of disruptions due to landings means you need more guys to do opposed landings.

8. Lack of airplanes ... especially in 1922 scenarios changes so many things .. can't bomb enemy bases .. so accumulation of supply can happen unimpeded. Ability to appear with significant force off an enemy island suddenly and with no warning ... ability of small naval forces to move through enemy territory with little worry ... If I could get more airplanes as the Japanese at start in 1922 ... I'd want more Felixstowes !!! 2 hex range ... can hit subs and shipping ... extremely useful ! in WITP I like my Emily's but I don't put them at the top of my list !

9. Ability to use "milch cows" to keep subs on station ... you can do this is WITP but it is much harder .. but in WPO I can bring the milch cows in very close to the enemy base, so my subs don't have to come off station very far to refuel ( in the game, a Mich Cow .. is like an AK that you are using to refuel your subs ).

10. Desire to fight surface battles in the day. For sometime ( until the night exp level at least hit the 60s ) you want to try to force your surface battles to be in the day. If you are defending something ( i.e. on patrol "sitting still" you can't control the time of day ) but if you are the attacker ... by starting the correct number of hexes away ... and using the Patrol order .. you can force the battle to be in the day time.

I'm sure there are other differences ... but these are the ones that come to mind ... oh and one more ... WITP is "work" .. WPO is "fun" !!

5. In my games I see a reversion to more ancient blocade tactics ( like around Manilla ) were surface forces try to prevent supply and reinforcement ships from entering ... and blocade runners try ( and usuallly succeed ) in breaking the blocade, in conjunction with surface forces sortie-ing from Manilla to support the blocade runners ... this is quite different and fun ( if frustrating ) !!

What settings do you have your blockade forces on? I would like to see an actual "Blockade" mission which would allow interception of enemy shipping say 1 or 2 hexes away. As I understand the surface combat "patrol" it will only react to threatened friendly bases. I would like something like; I am a squadron of destroyers and some AKs are moving 1 hex away. I should move and sink them. As it is in many cases you can guess where the ships are moving through and blockade effectively, but it would be great if there was something just one step up. Of course I do not know much programing would be involved.

Add that to my desire for a "Scout" mission and "Commerce Raider Mission"[:D]

You certainly have to refine your searching tactics. Now your DD, CLs and CAs are important for searching as well as subs. It means you have less information to work with so must anticipate your enemy even more so.

The only plane that provides a real threat to capital ships is the torpedo bomber, the Japanese have a decided edge there as they have more torpedo planes.

As Tankerace said before, keep you surface task forces small to medium size. (This has always been the case in Witp and UV as well but some are slow to learn).

You must build up chain of bases to keep your ships in supply

Have some alternatives in case one of your key bases gets taken or blockaded.

I just finished a two month battle scenario and found that ASW works fine. My Japanese subs were concentrated as was the Allied battle fleet and I was able to score lots of torpedo hits. But he was able to sink four or five subs and I had about 20 subs in port due to damage. Generally against all DD TF, my subs would shoot and miss or be detected before getting a shot off. Seems OK to me. It looks like his escorts were having some effect.

Now that the new patch is out, torpedos have been slightly dumbed down. That should be a good thing.

If you are facing a superior number of small ships with your capital ships, you should avoid night actions like the plague.

Learn your airplanes. There were dramatic advances in fighter technology during the interwar years and many of the planes are of WWI vintage. Against the mid war fighters they are going to get creamed.

As the Japanese, signet was of little help. Wonder if the Allies have an advantage here?

I just started my first campaign so I am just feeling my way.

ORIGINAL: Mike Carroll

5. In my games I see a reversion to more ancient blocade tactics ( like around Manilla ) were surface forces try to prevent supply and reinforcement ships from entering ... and blocade runners try ( and usuallly succeed ) in breaking the blocade, in conjunction with surface forces sortie-ing from Manilla to support the blocade runners ... this is quite different and fun ( if frustrating ) !!

What settings do you have your blockade forces on? I would like to see an actual "Blockade" mission which would allow interception of enemy shipping say 1 or 2 hexes away. As I understand the surface combat "patrol" it will only react to threatened friendly bases. I would like something like; I am a squadron of destroyers and some AKs are moving 1 hex away. I should move and sink them. As it is in many cases you can guess where the ships are moving through and blockade effectively, but it would be great if there was something just one step up. Of course I do not know much programing would be involved.

Add that to my desire for a "Scout" mission and "Commerce Raider Mission"[:D]

Well in the case I was mentioning, I am IJN blocading Manilla Bay. Now in the game, Manilla Bay entrance is 2 hexes .. which is 120 miles .. versus the RL mouth of the Bay being 12 miles !!! But hey, this is a game ! So I have to cover 120 miles. In my current game ( Cautionaries 1.4 ) I am doing this with 4+ Cruiser/Destroyer groups of about 8 ships each ( typically 2 CA/CL and 3 DD and 3 ODD ). This many groups ( 4+ ) are necessary to ensure that a minimum of 1 group is present in each Manilla Bay hex at all times and preferably 2 in each hex. I've used "Milch Cows" ( i.e. AK running around by themselves ) to refuel the ships ( most cruisers can't refuel off the AK .. but the DD can and the Cruisers have decent ranges ... so to maximize time of station .. I've tried to ensure the DDs always refuel off the AKs. This requies, moving the AK into a hex usually 1 hex back from the 2 Manilla Bay patrol hexes, then moving the TF to be refueing back to this hex, then temporarily breaking the TF down into the CA/CL portion and the DD portion ... then moving the CA/CL to a different hex .. then refueling the DD .. then moving the CA/CL and DD components back together, rejoining them and then moving them back to their patrol hex. But all this complexity beats having to move the TF back to Pescadores ( for instance ) to refuel. Of course Pescadores ( or equivalent ) is where they need to go to rearm .. but refueling as close as possible greatly increases the odds of enforcing the blocade. The more surface TFs you have around the area, the more likely to are to be able to intercept and stop the enemy shipping.

I've fought numerous surface actions in this blocade ... and at least been able to damage most of the blocade runners. But it does feel like a real blocade. And it is fun ! Even if frustrating that so much seems to be able to get through.

So I'm not trying to "move and sink them" .. I'm trying to sit on the hexes they must pass through .. so they have to "come and be sunk" ...

Both the Allies and Japanese Sigint are basically worthless. I brought this up as an issue awhile ago. The Allies were actually reading the Jap correspondence during the Washington Naval Talks. In fact the core group and capability developed then, is what lead to the code-breaking operations in WWII. But after the talks they were dispanded in the early 20's because "Gentlemen do not read each others mail" - of course they had no problems doing it during the talks[:D]

Apparently the problem is that the Sigint is hard-coded so it is not possible to give the Allies a slight advantage. The decision was made to make it an equal playing field instead of giving the Allies the kind of advantage they had in WWII.

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
I've fought numerous surface actions in this blocade ... and at least been able to damage most of the blocade runners. But it does feel like a real blocade. And it is fun ! Even if frustrating that so much seems to be able to get through.

So I'm not trying to "move and sink them" .. I'm trying to sit on the hexes they must pass through .. so they have to "come and be sunk" ...

How come Allies haven't torpedoed your blockading forces into oblivion?

I had 15 sunk Japanese DDs to my name at the same point in time as you're now =)

ORIGINAL: Mike Carroll
Apparently the problem is that the Sigint is hard-coded so it is not possible to give the Allies a slight advantage. The decision was made to make it an equal playing field instead of giving the Allies the kind of advantage they had in WWII.

Aside from the fact that every combat save starts with a nice, detailed view of the Home Islands even if you're an Allied player =)

ORIGINAL: Rysyonok

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
I've fought numerous surface actions in this blocade ... and at least been able to damage most of the blocade runners. But it does feel like a real blocade. And it is fun ! Even if frustrating that so much seems to be able to get through.

So I'm not trying to "move and sink them" .. I'm trying to sit on the hexes they must pass through .. so they have to "come and be sunk" ...

How come Allies haven't torpedoed your blockading forces into oblivion?

I had 15 sunk Japanese DDs to my name at the same point in time as you're now =)

They've tried ... but ASW ships and patrol planes suppress them .... the patrol planes really make a difference ...

ORIGINAL: Mike Carroll
1. For me dedicated ASW groups trying to hunt down subs have been very deadly to the hunters. I have lost 15 MSW's and 3 or 4 Destroyers to Jap subs . These units were not escorting cargo ships they were dedicated to trying to destroy submarines. Likely as not they end up getting torpedoed rather than doing any real damage to the subs.

MSWs have ASW of 1, DDs - of 2. I don't use MSWs (took some losses to learn that) - I stack 5-6 groups of 2 DDs in a high-traffic square and a few in squares where I expect the sub to retreat to... those subs do run out of torpedoes eventually =) And then it's a killfest.

And I always try to go after one sub at a time but in numbers...

ORIGINAL: Rysyonok

ORIGINAL: Mike Carroll
1. For me dedicated ASW groups trying to hunt down subs have been very deadly to the hunters. I have lost 15 MSW's and 3 or 4 Destroyers to Jap subs . These units were not escorting cargo ships they were dedicated to trying to destroy submarines. Likely as not they end up getting torpedoed rather than doing any real damage to the subs.

MSWs have ASW of 1, DDs - of 2. I don't use MSWs (took some losses to learn that) - I stack 5-6 groups of 2 DDs in a high-traffic square and a few in squares where I expect the sub to retreat to... those subs do run out of torpedoes eventually =) And then it's a killfest.

And I always try to go after one sub at a time but in numbers...

But then if I am sub commander, I stack subs deep enough to where they won't run out of torps before the next batch of subs gets there ... and I stack battlefleets in the nearby squares to pick of the DDs that venture out ... but there aren't very many squares I would go to ( with subs ) once the opposition gets effective. "Hit 'em where they ain't".

That's why the external groups have 8-10 ships whereas the internal ones have 1-2...