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Hi all,

This will be an odd question, but please bear with me.

I love HTTR, in part because I've always loved Market Garden but mostly because the Panther engine is so good. What I'm wondering now is if the release of COTA will make it harder for me to enjoy HTTR in the future.

It's like this: when "Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin" came out, I could no longer enjoy "Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord" because CMBB's enhancements made the original game feel so incomplete. I know it sounds strange, but I find myself hoping that most of COTA's enhancements will feel very specific to the Aegean battles so that going back to HTTR won't be a disappointment. I want HTTR to feel like it's still a superb game even after COTA comes out.

I told you it was an odd question. Does anyone else feel this way?

ORIGINAL: Paul Roberts

Hi all,

This will be an odd question, but please bear with me.

I love HTTR, in part because I've always loved Market Garden but mostly because the Panther engine is so good. What I'm wondering now is if the release of COTA will make it harder for me to enjoy HTTR in the future.

It's like this: when "Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin" came out, I could no longer enjoy "Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord" because CMBB's enhancements made the original game feel so incomplete. I know it sounds strange, but I find myself hoping that most of COTA's enhancements will feel very specific to the Aegean battles so that going back to HTTR won't be a disappointment. I want HTTR to feel like it's still a superb game even after COTA comes out.

I told you it was an odd question. Does anyone else feel this way?

Honestly, no. I've played through the missions in HTTR and have enjoyed the experience, and it was worth the price. I don't necessarily plan on replaying them unless I have some weird itch to try the market garden thing again.

Now, if someone asks me which game they should buy, I would definately say COTA, unless they really really enjoy the market garaden theme. Obviously a supply system is really important to an operational level game, and I always felt like the lack of front lines in HTTR was because of this. Units could become completely surrounded and suffer no real ill effects. Hopefully this will change with supply in COTA.

Paul,

Probably the biggest change has been to the mixed mode movement ( MMM ) and even if we were to redo HTTR with MMM you really wouldn't notice as the terrain there is so flat, relative to Greece. The number of locations on the HTTR maps where the slope would have been greater than 30 degrees, and hence prohibited motorised movement, could probably be counted on one hand. Realistic resupply on the other hand would have had a more significant impact. Many of the other changes, like better firebasing code, better reaction and reassessment code, better Delay code, better force allocation code etc probably affect how you play and how the AI controlled forced play. The overall affect being you can trust the AI to do more for you.

UI changes like the Order of Battle display and the Display Tool Bar will shape the way you interface with the game, no doubt about that. The ability to locate a unit in the OB display quickly will save you time and give you a better conceptual understanding of the way your forces are organised. The range ring display option, supply lines, route finding tools and area line of sight tool will give you greater power to analyse and develop plans.

So the changes will empower both the AI and the Player to get more out of the game, more out of the experience. For some these changes will become indespensible but for others they will be luxuries they can forego if the need arises. So it's a bit like those of us who are used to cars with power windows but are prepared to forego that to have the experience of driving a 1960's mustang.[:)]

ORIGINAL: Paul Roberts
I want HTTR to feel like it's still a superb game even after COTA comes out.

Don't worry - it'll still be a superb game 10 years from now [;)]

Besides an overall overhaul of the AI and the UI, the main additional new features that Cota introduces are mixed-mode movement, slope effects and supply. None of these are/were crucial in a MG setting, but *are* crucial in a Greek/Crete/Malta setting.

Short : the HTTR engine will remain superb for playing a MG scenario, it won't feel outdated.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

It's like this: when "Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin" came out, I could no longer enjoy "Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord" because CMBB's enhancements made the original game feel so incomplete.

You never downloaded the CMETO mod? It took the Africa Korp engine and made it to where you could play the scenarios and quick battles from CMBO using the Italian terrain.bmps. Works great. Am surprised you didn't know about it. Check out the Africa Korps Forum at Battlefront, it's usually there on the first page or two with people praising whoever done it for doing such a good job. This way you can play your favorite scenarios from CMBO and using all the enhancements from CMBO and CMAK.

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

You never downloaded the CMETO mod? It took the Africa Korp engine and made it to where you could play the scenarios and quick battles from CMBO using the Italian terrain.bmps. Works great. Am surprised you didn't know about it. Check out the Africa Korps Forum at Battlefront, it's usually there on the first page or two with people praising whoever done it for doing such a good job. This way you can play your favorite scenarios from CMBO and using all the enhancements from CMBO and CMAK.

Oh, absolutely! I love the ETO mods to CMAK. I should have pointed out that I was describing my feelings about CMBO after CMBB came out, but before CMAK made the West available again.

Of course, we won't have the same luxury of returning to the West and the late-war with COTA as we could with CMAK. We'll have to wait for BFTB.

(So many acronyms!)

Paul,

That is a very interesting question.

Recently, I went back to play a game of RDOA to compare it to COTA. See here:

tm.asp?m=1039812

I know what you mean about CMBO. As much as I enjoyed it, I pretty much stopped once I started playing CMBB and later CMAK. However, it wasn't just the many interface improvements in CMBB/CMAK, it was also the fact that the pace and the nature of the game had changed substantially. Battles moved at a slower pace and proper use of support weapons and overwatch became more important. It was kind of analogous to how flight models would feel different between different WWII flight sims like CFS, EAW, and IL-2.

I think that is what you are going to find between HTTR and COTA. The model feels different:

(1) Fatigue affects and movement rates are more liberal in HTTR and nightime operations were less penalized. One gets the feeling of a faster pace off operations.

(2) In COTA, off road movement for motorized/mechanized units is extremely limiting and woods are truly impassable. The road network is not simply a luxury, but an essential element of success or failure.

(3) The distinction between foot infantry and motorized infantry will be more profound in COTA.

(4) Isolated para-drops and glider landing forces could have operated indefinitely in HTTR. In COTA, they will be out of supplies in 1-2 days.

(5) In HTTR, a supply line was modeled by a string of "bread crumb" low value objectives along a highway. This is also true of COTA. However, in HTTR you could afford to forfeit one or two of these 6 point objectives. In COTA, permitting the same will strangle operations.

(6) In HTTR, arty opened fire at 03:01 and could be largely depleted by 15:00-18:00. In COTA, arty tends to be seen continuously throughout the day.

Of course, there are quite a few nice interface improvements like OBB, pathing, and LOS area tools. However, these are mainly convenience items for the player. They don't change how the game play feels.

So, if you can fluidly adjust to the above model differences in combat feel between HTTR and COTA. Then, you should be able to enjoy both games side by side. If not, then you probably will find HTTR hard to return to. Only you can answer that question.

I'm hoping the old battles get updated to the CotA engine either by players or panther games. I know from SSG's Korsun Pocket, when Battles in Normandy came out much of the players simply moved to the new engine and rarely played the Korsun Pocket games. Many player scenario's got update to BiN, and then to Battles in Italy which is the latest incarnation of the Decisive Battles Series; but the old KP stock scenario's never got updated except The Ardennes Offensive. Smolensk (aka Across the Dnepr) and Korsun never got updated.

I'm hoping the battles get updated from HttR to CotA. Whoever does it doesn't matter to me.

my $0.02

I don't think the players will be able to do it.

I don't believe that the COTA estab database includes the MG OOB and TOE. Since the game only comes with a map editor and a scenario editor that would preclude recreating the HTTR scenarios under COTA.

Interresting and tough question.

ORIGINAL: Paul Roberts
What I'm wondering now is if the release of COTA will make it harder for me to enjoy HTTR in the future.

For you, I don't know, but seeing the many enhancements put into the game engine, I fear that HttR will feel a bit outdated for me after CotA.
OTOH, as Eddy expressed it, the core features like Mixed Mode and Realistic-Resupply are not vital to the MG simulation (though resupply, [8|] ... well). And Market Garden has more appeal to me.
It will be more the upgraded UI and AI that might drive me off HttR. Time will tell. This concerns won't prevent me to buy CotA on the first day it is available as a boxed version (this is important to me).

About having Market Garden in CotA engine, I wouldn't count on it. Estab won't be there in CotA, for sure. And terrain is different. I think it's better to concentrate on what we have now (HttR), in the near future (CotA) and what we can do to expand from the brideghead (Rooster has already prepared something on the Battle of Arras). And not trying to re-do things that were done, even though it would be kind of cool. [8D]

My 2 cents,

JeF.