Page 1 of 1
offensive defensive missions
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:14 pm
by bstarr
I'd like to see missions enabling the defensive player (England in BOB, Germany in BTR) to launch occasional offensive missions. Sweep missions, ground support (for Germany in BTR), and maybe even antishipping (like the German attacks on allied landing forces in Sicily).
RE: offensive defensive missions
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:18 pm
by harley
The only way to acheive that is to make it more like UV and descendants, with a dual planning phase then a resolution phase, using hexes to ensure contact.
The joy of BTR for me is the real-time aspect, without that it's not going to allow the same level of detail...
RE: offensive defensive missions
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:27 pm
by langley
I must admit I do like the idea of being able to launch some offensive missions. But i agree that it may not prove to be possible!
RE: offensive defensive missions
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:44 pm
by Hard Sarge
To be honest, I think we can add "some" off missions for the other side
it wouldn't be set up like a true plotted raid during the turn
IE the LW sees some 2000 Allied planes have been in the air and most are heading home, so he sends up everything he has left for a raid
but more a AI controlled thing
if this and that is met, then this may happen, 3 or 4 Jabo's may take off on a baby blitz mission, if the V1 sites are not all damaged, and V1's are in stock, well, guess it is time to fire some off (which will get the High Command types all in a uproar)
the main types of targets we talked about were counter TE points, where say if the raid makes it though, then so many points are lost to the Allies Terror level
nothing in stone, can't say we can or we can't or we will or we won't, but I have had a few talks about this part of the game
(we don't want something that can really ruin your day happening, we don't want 6 Gruppen of FW's to race across the channel and catch 10 BG's of B-17's in the landing pattern and the Allied player has nothing he can do about it)
but, would like there to be a reason to knock out things, to close down AF's, to cut RR's reasons for LW ground attack planes to be in the game, He 111's and Ju 88's to be sitting around
you catch them on the ground, great, more targets to kill, you can't find them, look out, a raid may be comeing
but again, this is more a you know, we could set something up, then a we will set this up
which if the AI can sneak some missions in, the AI could also use what is sitting around to defend also (the more complex we try to be, the HARDer it is going to be to get it added)
LOL
I hope this came out right, it is not part of the plan, but we have talked about if we could do it ?
RE: offensive defensive missions
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:05 pm
by bstarr
ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
To be honest, I think we can add "some" off missions for the other side
it wouldn't be set up like a true plotted raid during the turn
IE the LW sees some 2000 Allied planes have been in the air and most are heading home, so he sends up everything he has left for a raid
but more a AI controlled thing
if this and that is met, then this may happen, 3 or 4 Jabo's may take off on a baby blitz mission, if the V1 sites are not all damaged, and V1's are in stock, well, guess it is time to fire some off (which will get the High Command types all in a uproar)
the main types of targets we talked about were counter TE points, where say if the raid makes it though, then so many points are lost to the Allies Terror level
nothing in stone, can't say we can or we can't or we will or we won't, but I have had a few talks about this part of the game
(we don't want something that can really ruin your day happening, we don't want 6 Gruppen of FW's to race across the channel and catch 10 BG's of B-17's in the landing pattern and the Allied player has nothing he can do about it)
but, would like there to be a reason to knock out things, to close down AF's, to cut RR's reasons for LW ground attack planes to be in the game, He 111's and Ju 88's to be sitting around
you catch them on the ground, great, more targets to kill, you can't find them, look out, a raid may be comeing
but again, this is more a you know, we could set something up, then a we will set this up
which if the AI can sneak some missions in, the AI could also use what is sitting around to defend also (the more complex we try to be, the HARDer it is going to be to get it added)
LOL
I hope this came out right, it is not part of the plan, but we have talked about if we could do it ?
Sounds a lot like what I had in mind. Not show stoppers, calculated risks with minimal payoff. What would be hard would be giving the allies a limited ability to intercept. Possibly something like the computer automatically launching a few planes from unused FGs against nearby raids. In my opinion would think that the germans might need a limited preplan phase for their offensive raids, but the allies could easily stay with their "plan and pray" offensive style. (ps. I never owned BOB, so I generally think of offensive as allied and defensive as german)
German ground support would also be interesting, but very difficult to replicate. I read one book about the latter days of the Normandy campaign in which a battalion commander complained that despite allied air superiority the germans he was facing actually recieved more air support than he did. Of course, what he was seeing was one or two Me-110s or FWs swiftly moving in for a quick hit and run. This type of combat might be interesting, but it might not be easy to reproduce in BTR/BOB.
RE: offensive defensive missions
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:03 pm
by otisabuser2
This could even be included in BoB. German sources complain that RAF vs LW daily losses never include Bomber Command losses. BC at this time was employed in raids against the invasions ports and LW airfields, sometimes with great success.
At the end of every days fighting, ask the Allied (defending ) player if they want to launch counter-strikes. These can be small scale daylights vs airfields or larger night-times vs ports.
Port damge just increase the Allied score ( ie put Sealion further back ). Airfield damage destroys LW planes and pilots and damages runways.
The key would be that only LW fighters that did not fly during their offensive turn, are fully available for the counter-turn.
It is always stressed that during the BoB RAF pilots were exhausted by flying severals sorties per day. The majority of these being patrols rather that actual contacts. It is often overlooked that the LW were also heavily engaged in patrolling, and this is currently not represented in the game.
We can add RAF BC airfields into the game, with BC planes and pilots. LW attacks on these will increase their own AS score, as the RAF will be hindered fighting off Sealion.
regards Otis
RE: offensive defensive missions
Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:51 am
by Hard Sarge
in this kind of game, I would want to keep AF's out of the targetting, don't think it is right or fair (besides most of these were sneak raids, not major raids)
Ports and shipping (if we can get it) should be the targets as well as Terror
don't forget, CC took a pounding during this time frame also
RE: offensive defensive missions
Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:53 pm
by Adnan Meshuggi
hm, sorry guys... is this doable ?
i mean - how many bugs come in with such options ?
Sure, it would be nice as the germans to change strategy and fly with the bc and bomb some af´s... they did not cause hitler wantet the people see the bombers on the ground.
But as mentioned, how could th game react ? And in the end, we may see allied night fighters slaughtering allied bombers cause of the one german Ju88 Bomber ? Same for BoB...
if this game would be like WitP, this would be in... but the AI is "bad" enough (for players)
More important all these stupid automatical upgrade stuff should be eliminated- better you can change all things you want without a penalty, only in the end of the day it will be "in stone"... so you can try and change or redo... so you have no gamestopper if you accidentally switch the 25engine factory that will stop ALL factories at this place for 250 days.... (another good idea would be that only the same factories are involved... i mean, if Daimler-Benz change his parts-production, why should the engine-factory be stoped for 100 days ? In BoB we had no such problem (gladly).. hm, i have to look for my cd... just bomb some radar cites... (i never was a good BoB-Player as the axis, cause i dislike the Terrorbombing... so i prefer the brits in BOB and the germans in BtR..., but some radar site bashing is nice (with the red circles vanishing... after your reports come in)
RE: offensive defensive missions
Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:43 am
by otisabuser2
Hi Adnan,
I don't beleive that we should not try to develop the game just because there is a fear that some bugs may creep in.
If we had the "counter-attack day" in a turn following the normal day, then all the game routines would be the same, but just the sides (units) would be switched. Not too much need to write heaps and heaps of brand new code, hopefully.
... i mean, if Daimler-Benz change his parts-production, why should the engine-factory be stoped for 100 days ? In BoB we had no such problem (gladly)..
Only because in BoB we were not permitted to change production at all !
I do agree with the priciple though. Change of engines produced at a factory should have little effect on airframe production, and vis versa. We could alter this annoying quirk in game simply by reducing joint engine/parts factories down to two seperate factories, almost side by side ( one square away ).
Otis
RE: offensive defensive missions
Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:28 am
by Augenstein
Well everyone knows about Operation Bodenplatte ( more here:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... i_n9477885 ), so it would definately make an interesting inclusion.
RE: offensive defensive missions
Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:55 pm
by HMSWarspite
Yes, but if Ge can attack, you need Allied flak, CAP, radar, etc etc etc. And exactly what did Bodenplatte do to the war? If you want to include it, allow the LW to remove 200 a/c worth of units to rear bases, and not use them for the rest of the war, and you get roughly the effect![;)]
RE: offensive defensive missions
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:01 am
by Augenstein
Yeah, Bodenplatte was very unsuccesful operation but that was not the point.
RE: offensive defensive missions
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:08 am
by HMSWarspite
ORIGINAL: Augenstein
Yeah, Bodenplatte was very unsuccesful operation but that was not the point.
No, but the fact that if the Ge can attack allies, you need to model the Allies defenses, and ability to hinder such attacks. I think you are in to a whole new game if this is included. There is a LOT of stuff I would rather see first!
RE: offensive defensive missions
Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:40 pm
by harley
I always hated it when I was told by someone-who-shall-remain-nameless that "you can't do that because it just wouldn't have happened" followed by a 47 page diatribe on what and why, so I'll save the diatribe.
Your role in this game is not Commander in Chief. You don't have the right to undertake offensive missions, all you have the right to do is SHOOT DOWN BOMBERS OVER LAND. You are lucky - CiC isn't chewing you out for targetting Fighters, and lets you operate in the North Sea.
The KG's and SKG's that are not in the game are not in the game for a reason - they had little effect on the air war in the West.
Sure, they took a little defense over the channel, but they really didn't have that great an impact on Military operations.
It's not going to add anything useful to the game, it's not going to add anything tangible to the game, it's just going to add a little "fluff factor" to the end of day report, which is rather pointless.