Matrix Games Forums

Besides all the noise re the new values since version 8.4, does anyone have the complete list of these values for the earlier versions, that is, pre 8.4?

I don't have a typed list but can see what they are when i load up 7.1 (the oldest version i own).
H2H is probably closest to the mark. Higher morale levels helps infantry in particular initiate assaults and hold position in defensive entrenchments. Much unlike 8.4

Does this mean that no one actually knows what the original in program values were for the Leader & Troop experience and morale values were for version 8.2/8.3?

All I am after is a list similar to the one Mike posted for v4.3x so they can be compared and I want to do a few tests.

Chicken feed >>>>

--- leader exp ---
70, 75, 75, 75, 70, 65, 60 // GERMAN
70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 60, 60 // FINNISH
30, 30, 35, 40, 30, 30, 30 // ITALIAN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 // RUMANIAN
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 40, 35 // HUNGARIAN
65, 65, 75, 70, 70, 70, 65 // JAPANESE
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 // FRENCH
50, 55, 60, 60, 60, 65, 70 // BRITISH
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // BELGIUM
30, 30, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35 // DUTCH
50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60, 60 // POLISH
35, 45, 50, 55, 60, 60, 60 // SOVIET
40, 45, 50, 60, 65, 70, 70 // US ARMY
45, 50, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 // US MARINE
25, 25, 25, 30, 35, 40, 35 // CHINESE
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 55, 50 // GREEK
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // NORWEIGAN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 // YUGOSLAVIAN
50, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // CANADA
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // INDIA
50, 60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65 // ANZAC
40, 40, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 // FREE FRENCH
25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 35, 45 // COMMUNIST CHINA
50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60, 60 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40, 40, 45, 60, 55, 60, 55 // PHILIPINNES
45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 55, 55 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 55, 55 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 // BULGARIA

--- leader morale ---
65, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 50 // GERMAN
65, 70, 70, 65, 65, 60, 55 // FINNISH
45, 40, 40, 45, 35, 35, 35 // ITALIAN
35, 35, 35, 40, 35, 30, 25 // RUMANIAN
40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 40, 35 // HUNGARIAN
65, 70, 70, 75, 75, 75, 75 // JAPANESE
40, 40, 35, 35, 30, 30, 30 // FRENCH
60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 55 // BRITISH
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 // BELGIUM
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // DUTCH
50, 55, 50, 55, 60, 65, 65 // POLISH
35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65 // SOVIET
45, 50, 55, 65, 75, 75, 75 // US ARMY
60, 65, 65, 70, 75, 80, 80 // US MARINE
35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 40, 35 // CHINESE
60, 60, 60, 55, 60, 65, 65 // GREEK
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 // NORWEIGAN
40, 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 // YUGOSLAVIAN
65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // CANADA
45, 45, 45, 50, 50, 55, 55 // INDIA
65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // ANZAC
40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 55 // FREE FRENCH
35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 45, 45 // COMMUNIST CHINA
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 55 // PHILIPINNES
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
35, 35, 40, 45, 40, 35, 30 // BULGARIA

--- troop exp ---
60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 65, 60 // GERMAN
65, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 // FINNISH
50, 55, 60, 65, 60, 55, 55 // ITALIAN
45, 50, 55, 55, 50, 50, 50 // RUMANIAN
45, 50, 60, 60, 55, 55, 50 // HUNGARIAN
60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 65, 65 // JAPANESE
50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 // FRENCH
55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70 // BRITISH
45, 50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55 // BELGIUM
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 // DUTCH
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60 // POLISH
50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 // SOVIET
55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70 // US ARMY
60, 65, 70, 75, 75, 75, 75 // US MARINE
45, 50, 55, 55, 60, 60, 55 // CHINESE
45, 55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65 // GREEK
45, 55, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 // NORWEIGAN
45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 // YUGOSLAVIAN
55, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 // CANADA
45, 50, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 // INDIA
55, 65, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70 // ANZAC
50, 55, 65, 65, 70, 70, 70 // FREE FRENCH
40, 45, 50, 50, 55, 55, 65 // COMMUNIST CHINA
55, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
45, 45, 50, 50, 55, 60, 60 // PHILIPINNES
45, 50, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
45, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
45, 50, 55, 55, 50, 45, 45 // BULGARIA

--- troop morale ---,
70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65 // GERMAN
70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65 // FINNISH
65, 65, 60, 60, 55, 65, 65 // ITALIAN
55, 55, 60, 60, 55, 50, 45 // RUMANIAN
60, 60, 65, 65, 60, 55, 50 // HUNGARIAN
70, 70, 70, 75, 75, 70, 70 // JAPANESE
60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // FRENCH
60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70, 75 // BRITISH
55, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 // BELGIUM
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60 // DUTCH
60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70 // POLISH
50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 75 // SOVIET
60, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70 // US ARMY
65, 65, 65, 70, 75, 75, 75 // US MARINE
60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 55 // CHINESE
55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // GREEK
55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // NORWEIGAN
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60 // YUGOSLAVIAN
60, 65, 75, 70, 70, 70, 75 // CANADA
55, 55, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 // INDIA
60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70, 75 // ANZAC
60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70 // FREE FRENCH
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 65 // COMMUNIST CHINA
65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
55, 55, 50, 50, 55, 60, 60 // PHILIPINNES
60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
55, 55, 60, 60, 55, 45, 45 // BULGARIA

How did you do that Desert Rat ?
Looks the same as 7.1 values with US army and Marines being better or equal to UK, Germany & Japan in 1942

(Is this an all Australian thread so far?)

Never ask a Rat how he gets things!!!

Only one point is I may have teh troop experience and moral values swapped. Just going through a check on this.
Your comment seems to imply that an accidental swap occured.

ORIGINAL: soldier

How did you do that Desert Rat ?
Looks the same as 7.1 values with US army and Marines being better or equal to UK, Germany & Japan in 1942

(Is this an all Australian thread so far?)

Sounds like it but it also seems few actually know the real values [:D][:D]

After some extra checking i suspect teh original list had teh troop experience and troop morale switched...

Well I suspect for many all this means little anyway..

--- leader exp ---
70, 75, 75, 75, 70, 65, 60 // GERMAN
70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 60, 60 // FINNISH
30, 30, 35, 40, 30, 30, 30 // ITALIAN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 // RUMANIAN
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 40, 35 // HUNGARIAN
65, 65, 75, 70, 70, 70, 65 // JAPANESE
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 // FRENCH
50, 55, 60, 60, 60, 65, 70 // BRITISH
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // BELGIUM
30, 30, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35 // DUTCH
50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60, 60 // POLISH
35, 45, 50, 55, 60, 60, 60 // SOVIET
40, 45, 50, 60, 65, 70, 70 // US ARMY
45, 50, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 // US MARINE
25, 25, 25, 30, 35, 40, 35 // CHINESE
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 55, 50 // GREEK
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // NORWEIGAN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 // YUGOSLAVIAN
50, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // CANADA
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // INDIA
50, 60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65 // ANZAC
40, 40, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 // FREE FRENCH
25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 35, 45 // COMMUNIST CHINA
50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60, 60 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40, 40, 45, 60, 55, 60, 55 // PHILIPINNES
45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 55, 55 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 55, 55 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 // BULGARIA

--- leader morale ---
65, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 50 // GERMAN
65, 70, 70, 65, 65, 60, 55 // FINNISH
45, 40, 40, 45, 35, 35, 35 // ITALIAN
35, 35, 35, 40, 35, 30, 25 // RUMANIAN
40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 40, 35 // HUNGARIAN
65, 70, 70, 75, 75, 75, 75 // JAPANESE
40, 40, 35, 35, 30, 30, 30 // FRENCH
60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 55 // BRITISH
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 // BELGIUM
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // DUTCH
50, 55, 50, 55, 60, 65, 65 // POLISH
35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65 // SOVIET
45, 50, 55, 65, 75, 75, 75 // US ARMY
60, 65, 65, 70, 75, 80, 80 // US MARINE
35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 40, 35 // CHINESE
60, 60, 60, 55, 60, 65, 65 // GREEK
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 // NORWEIGAN
40, 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 // YUGOSLAVIAN
65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // CANADA
45, 45, 45, 50, 50, 55, 55 // INDIA
65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // ANZAC
40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 55 // FREE FRENCH
35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 45, 45 // COMMUNIST CHINA
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 55 // PHILIPINNES
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
35, 35, 40, 45, 40, 35, 30 // BULGARIA

--- troop exp ---
70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65 // GERMAN
70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65 // FINNISH
65, 65, 60, 60, 55, 65, 65 // ITALIAN
55, 55, 60, 60, 55, 50, 45 // RUMANIAN
60, 60, 65, 65, 60, 55, 50 // HUNGARIAN
70, 70, 70, 75, 75, 70, 70 // JAPANESE
60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // FRENCH
60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70, 75 // BRITISH
55, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 // BELGIUM
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60 // DUTCH
60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70 // POLISH
50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 75 // SOVIET
60, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70 // US ARMY
65, 65, 65, 70, 75, 75, 75 // US MARINE
60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 55 // CHINESE
55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // GREEK
55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // NORWEIGAN
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60 // YUGOSLAVIAN
60, 65, 75, 70, 70, 70, 75 // CANADA
55, 55, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 // INDIA
60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70, 75 // ANZAC
60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70 // FREE FRENCH
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 65 // COMMUNIST CHINA
65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
55, 55, 50, 50, 55, 60, 60 // PHILIPINNES
60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
55, 55, 60, 60, 55, 45, 45 // BULGARIA

--- troop morale ---
60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 65, 60 // GERMAN
65, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 // FINNISH
50, 55, 60, 65, 60, 55, 55 // ITALIAN
45, 50, 55, 55, 50, 50, 50 // RUMANIAN
45, 50, 60, 60, 55, 55, 50 // HUNGARIAN
60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 65, 65 // JAPANESE
50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 // FRENCH
55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70 // BRITISH
45, 50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55 // BELGIUM
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 // DUTCH
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60 // POLISH
50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 // SOVIET
55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70 // US ARMY
60, 65, 70, 75, 75, 75, 75 // US MARINE
45, 50, 55, 55, 60, 60, 55 // CHINESE
45, 55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65 // GREEK
45, 55, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 // NORWEIGAN
45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 // YUGOSLAVIAN
55, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 // CANADA
45, 50, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 // INDIA
55, 65, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70 // ANZAC
50, 55, 65, 65, 70, 70, 70 // FREE FRENCH
40, 45, 50, 50, 55, 55, 65 // COMMUNIST CHINA
55, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
45, 45, 50, 50, 55, 60, 60 // PHILIPINNES
45, 50, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
45, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
45, 50, 55, 55, 50, 45, 45 // BULGARIA


the values hold for v8.20 and v8.3

At least you all NOW know what the values were you liked and cf them with the new ones you don't like ..

Enjoy it all

I think you can do quite a lot with Emplacements, I have found them to stiffen defences particulary well, but only if proper chain of command exists.

-Colonel von Blitz-

Well I agree there, but what does that have to do with Troops' Experience, Morale, and Leader values?

azraelck, I replied to Soldiers post: Higher morale levels helps infantry in particular initiate assaults and hold position in defensive entrenchments.

And just meant, that even if morale level is lower, it can be 'corrected' up to a point by using emplacements (that only few PBEM players actually use). Still, you're right, I was a bit off-topic...sorry.

-Colonel von Blitz-

Ah. The wording of it made it seem somewhat random.

Just interested, from where these values for different countries were taken originally? Some of those numbers just seem so random...

Most of them work ok, but some of them just are so low, that there's no point trying to PBEM with certain countries, without turning off the 'Historic Ratings'. And if that is turned off, you just have one value for three parameters (Morale, Experience, Leader Skill)...how about letting players controlling all three of them separately? [:'(]

-Colonel von Blitz-

Thanks for all this.
One thing that I was after was the issue of the real difference between the old values and new ones and are they really that much different.

Below I hope give this difference. The big thing i can not as yet determine is teh way this difference operates. ie a change of 5 in the 30 range seems form comments not to be the same as a change of 5 in the 70 range...
I am not trying to start a new war on these values but just deliver some level of fact to the whole thing..

Assuming the table comes out propely:
diff of 4 is an increase from 8.3 to 8.4x
diff of -4 is a decrease from 8.3 to 8.4x


8.2 and 8.3 _______________ 8.4 and 8.403 ___________ diff as 8.4 value - 8.3 value
39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45 ___ 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45 ___ 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45
LEADER EXPERIENCE
70, 75, 75, 75, 70, 65, 60 ___ 70, 75, 75, 75, 70, 65, 60 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // GERMAN
70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 60, 60 ___ 70, 70, 70, 65, 65, 60, 60 ___ 0, 0, 0, -5, 0, 0, 0 // FINNISH
30, 30, 35, 40, 30, 30, 30 ___ 30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 ___ 0, 0, 0, -5, 0, -5, -5 // ITALIAN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 ___ 30, 30, 30, 30, 25, 20, 20 ___ 0, 0, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5 // RUMANIAN
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 40, 35 ___ 35, 35, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 ___ -5, -5, -10, -10, -15, -15, -10 // HUNGARIAN
65, 65, 75, 70, 70, 70, 65 ___ 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 ___ 5, 5, -5, 0, 0, 0, 5 // JAPANESE
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 ___ 40, 40, 40, 40, 35, 35, 35 ___ -5, -5, -10, -10, -15, -15, -15 // FRENCH
50, 55, 60, 60, 60, 65, 70 ___ 50, 50, 55, 55, 60, 60, 60 ___ 0, -5, -5, -5, 0, -5, -10 // BRITISH
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 55 ___ 5, 5, 0, 5, 5, 5, 10 // BELGIUM
30, 30, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 55 ___ 15, 15, 10, 15, 15, 15, 20 // DUTCH
50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60, 60 ___ 45, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 65 ___ -5, -10, -5, 0, 5, 5, 5 // POLISH
35, 45, 50, 55, 60, 60, 60 ___ 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 ___ -5, -10, -10, -10, -10, -5, 0 // SOVIET
40, 45, 50, 60, 65, 70, 70 ___ 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 50, 55 ___ 0, -5, -5, -10, -10, -20, -15 // US ARMY
45, 50, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 ___ 55, 55, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70 ___ 10, 5, -5, -5, -5, 0, 0 // US MARINE
25, 25, 25, 30, 35, 40, 35 ___ 25, 25, 25, 30, 35, 40, 40 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 5 // CHINESE
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 55, 50 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 55, 60, 60 ___ 0, 0, -5, 0, 5, 5, 10 // GREEK
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 ___ 45, 45, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45 ___ 5, 5, -5, 0, 0, 0, 0 // NORWEIGAN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 ___ 40, 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 50 ___ 10, 10, 5, 10, 20, 30, 25 // YUGOSLAVIAN
50, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 55, 55, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 ___ 5, -5, -10, -5, -5, 0, 0 // CANADA
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 ___ 45, 50, 55, 55, 60, 60, 60 ___ 5, 10, 10, 10, 15, 15, 15 // INDIA
50, 60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 55, 55, 55, 60, 65, 65, 65 ___ 5, -5, -5, -5, 0, 0, 0 // ANZAC
40, 40, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 ___ 40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 60 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, -5, -5, -5 // FREE FRENCH
25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 35, 45 ___ 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 35, 45 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // COMMUNIST CHINA
50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60, 60 ___ 50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60, 60 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40, 40, 45, 60, 55, 60, 55 ___ 40, 40, 45, 60, 55, 60, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // PHILIPINNES
45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 55, 55 ___ 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 55, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 55, 55 ___ 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 55, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 ___ 30, 30, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // BULGARIA
LEADER MORALE
65, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 50 ___ 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 50 ___ 5, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // GERMAN
65, 70, 70, 65, 65, 60, 55 ___ 70, 70, 70, 65, 65, 60, 55 ___ 5, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // FINNISH
45, 40, 40, 45, 35, 35, 35 ___ 40, 35, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 ___ -5, -5, -5, -10, -5, -10, -10 // ITALIAN
35, 35, 35, 40, 35, 30, 25 ___ 35, 35, 35, 40, 35, 30, 25 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // RUMANIAN
40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 40, 35 ___ 35, 35, 40, 45, 40, 35, 30 ___ -5, -10, -5, 0, -5, -5, -5 // HUNGARIAN
65, 70, 70, 75, 75, 75, 75 ___ 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 ___ 5, 0, 0, -5, -5, -5, -5 // JAPANESE
40, 40, 35, 35, 30, 30, 30 ___ 40, 40, 35, 35, 30, 30, 30 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // FRENCH
60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 55 ___ 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // BRITISH
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 55, 60, 55 ___ 0, 0, -5, 0, 5, 10, 5 // BELGIUM
40, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 55, 60, 55 ___ 5, 5, 0, 5, 10, 15, 10 // DUTCH
50, 55, 50, 55, 60, 65, 65 ___ 60, 55, 50, 55, 60, 65, 60 ___ 10, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, -5 // POLISH
35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65 ___ 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // SOVIET
45, 50, 55, 65, 75, 75, 75 ___ 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 60 ___ -5, -10, -10, -15, -20, -15, -15 // US ARMY
60, 65, 65, 70, 75, 80, 80 ___ 55, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 ___ -5, -10, -5, -5, -5, -10, -10 // US MARINE
35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 40, 35 ___ 35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 40, 40 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 5 // CHINESE
60, 60, 60, 55, 60, 65, 65 ___ 60, 60, 60, 55, 60, 65, 65 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // GREEK
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 ___ 45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // NORWEIGAN
40, 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 ___ 40, 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // YUGOSLAVIAN
65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // CANADA
45, 45, 45, 50, 50, 55, 55 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 50, 55, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // INDIA
65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // ANZAC
40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 55 ___ 40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // FREE FRENCH
35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 45, 45 ___ 35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 45, 45 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // COMMUNIST CHINA
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 ___ 45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 55 ___ 40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // PHILIPINNES
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 ___ 45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 ___ 45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
35, 35, 40, 45, 40, 35, 30 ___ 35, 35, 40, 45, 40, 35, 30 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0 // BULGARIA
TROOPS EXPERIENCE
60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 65, 60 ___ 65, 70, 75, 70, 65, 60, 55 ___ 5, 5, 5, 0, -5, -5, -5 // GERMAN
65, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 ___ 70, 70, 70, 65, 65, 60, 60 ___ 5, 5, 0, -5, -5, -10, -10 // FINNISH
50, 55, 60, 65, 60, 55, 55 ___ 35, 35, 40, 40, 35, 30, 30 ___ -15, -20, -20, -25, -25, -25, -25 // ITALIAN
45, 50, 55, 55, 50, 50, 50 ___ 35, 35, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 ___ -10, -15, -20, -20, -20, -25, -25 // RUMANIAN
45, 50, 60, 60, 55, 55, 50 ___ 35, 35, 35, 35, 30, 30, 30 ___ -10, -15, -25, -25, -25, -25, -20 // HUNGARIAN
60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 65, 65 ___ 70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 60, 55 ___ 10, 5, 0, 0, -5, -5, -10 // JAPANESE
50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 ___ 45, 45, 45, 45, 40, 40, 40 ___ -5, -10, -15, -20, -30, -30, -30 // FRENCH
55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70 ___ 50, 50, 50, 55, 60, 60, 60 ___ -5, -10, -15, -10, -5, -10, -10 // BRITISH
45, 50, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 55 ___ 0, -5, -10, -5, -5, -5, 0 // BELGIUM
45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 50, 50, 55 ___ 0, 0, -5, 0, 0, 0, 5 // DUTCH
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60 ___ 45, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 65 ___ -10, -10, -5, 0, 5, 10, 5 // POLISH
50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 ___ 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 60 ___ -15, -15, -15, -15, -15, -10, -10 // SOVIET
55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70 ___ 40, 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 ___ -15, -20, -25, -25, -20, -15, -10 // US ARMY
60, 65, 70, 75, 75, 75, 75 ___ 50, 50, 50, 55, 60, 65, 70 ___ -10, -15, -20, -20, -15, -10, -5 // US MARINE
45, 50, 55, 55, 60, 60, 55 ___ 30, 30, 30, 35, 40, 40, 40 ___ -15, -20, -25, -20, -20, -20, -15 // CHINESE
45, 55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 55, 60, 60 ___ 0, -10, -15, -15, -10, -5, -5 // GREEK
45, 55, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 ___ 45, 45, 40, 45, 45, 45, 45 ___ 0, -10, -20, -15, -15, -15, -15 // NORWEIGAN
45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 ___ 40, 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 50 ___ -5, -10, -10, -5, 0, 5, 0 // YUGOSLAVIAN
55, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 ___ 50, 50, 50, 55, 60, 65, 65 ___ -5, -15, -20, -15, -10, -5, -5 // CANADA
45, 50, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 ___ 40, 45, 50, 55, 55, 60, 60 ___ -5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5 // INDIA
55, 65, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70 ___ 50, 50, 50, 55, 60, 65, 65 ___ -5, -15, -15, -15, -10, -5, -5 // ANZAC
50, 55, 65, 65, 70, 70, 70 ___ 45, 45, 50, 55, 50, 55, 60 ___ -5, -10, -15, -10, -20, -15, -10 // FREE FRENCH
40, 45, 50, 50, 55, 55, 65 ___ 30, 35, 40, 40, 45, 45, 55 ___ -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10 // COMMUNIST CHINA
55, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 ___ 45, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 ___ -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
45, 45, 50, 50, 55, 60, 60 ___ 35, 35, 40, 40, 45, 50, 50 ___ -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10 // PHILIPINNES
45, 50, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 ___ 35, 40, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50 ___ -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
45, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 ___ 35, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35 ___ -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
45, 50, 55, 55, 50, 45, 45 ___ 35, 40, 45, 45, 40, 35, 35 ___ -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10 // BULGARIA
TROOPS MORALE
70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65 ___ 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65, 50 ___ 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, -5, -15 // GERMAN
70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 65 ___ 70, 70, 70, 65, 65, 60, 55 ___ 0, 0, 0, -5, -5, -10, -10 // FINNISH
65, 65, 60, 60, 55, 65, 65 ___ 40, 35, 35, 35, 30, 25, 25 ___ -25, -30, -25, -25, -25, -40, -40 // ITALIAN
55, 55, 60, 60, 55, 50, 45 ___ 35, 35, 35, 40, 35, 30, 25 ___ -20, -20, -25, -20, -20, -20, -20 // RUMANIAN
60, 60, 65, 65, 60, 55, 50 ___ 35, 35, 40, 45, 40, 35, 30 ___ -25, -25, -25, -20, -20, -20, -20 // HUNGARIAN
70, 70, 70, 75, 75, 70, 70 ___ 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 ___ 0, 0, 0, -5, -5, 0, 0 // JAPANESE
60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 40, 40, 35, 35, 30, 30, 30 ___ -20, -20, -30, -30, -35, -35, -35 // FRENCH
60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70, 75 ___ 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 55 ___ 0, -5, -5, -5, -10, -10, -20 // BRITISH
55, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 55, 60, 55 ___ -10, -15, -15, -10, -5, 0, -5 // BELGIUM
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 55, 60, 55 ___ -10, -10, -10, -5, 0, 5, -5 // DUTCH
60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70 ___ 60, 55, 50, 55, 60, 65, 60 ___ 0, -5, -15, -10, -5, -5, -10 // POLISH
50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 75 ___ 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65 ___ -15, -15, -15, -15, -15, -10, -10 // SOVIET
60, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70, 70 ___ 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 60 ___ -20, -20, -20, -20, -15, -10, -10 // US ARMY
65, 65, 65, 70, 75, 75, 75 ___ 55, 55, 60, 65, 70, 70, 70 ___ -10, -10, -5, -5, -5, -5, -5 // US MARINE
60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 55 ___ 35, 35, 35, 40, 40, 40, 40 ___ -25, -25, -25, -20, -20, -20, -15 // CHINESE
55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 60, 60, 60, 55, 60, 65, 65 ___ 5, 0, -5, -10, -5, 0, 0 // GREEK
55, 60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 45, 45, 40, 45, 50, 55, 55 ___ -10, -15, -25, -20, -15, -10, -10 // NORWEIGAN
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 60 ___ 40, 40, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 ___ -15, -15, -15, -10, -5, 0, 0 // YUGOSLAVIAN
60, 65, 75, 70, 70, 70, 75 ___ 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 5, 0, -10, -5, -5, -5, -10 // CANADA
55, 55, 55, 60, 60, 65, 65 ___ 45, 45, 45, 50, 50, 55, 55 ___ -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10, -10 // INDIA
60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70, 75 ___ 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 5, 0, 0, 0, -5, -5, -10 // ANZAC
60, 60, 65, 65, 65, 70, 70 ___ 40, 40, 55, 60, 55, 60, 55 ___ -20, -20, -10, -5, -10, -10, -15 // FREE FRENCH
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 65 ___ 25, 25, 20, 20, 25, 30, 30 ___ -30, -30, -35, -35, -30, -25, -35 // COMMUNIST CHINA
65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 35, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35 ___ -30, -30, -30, -30, -30, -30, -30 // CZECHOSLOVAKIA
55, 55, 50, 50, 55, 60, 60 ___ 25, 25, 20, 20, 25, 30, 30 ___ -30, -30, -30, -30, -30, -30, -30 // PHILIPINNES
60, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65, 65 ___ 40, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45, 45 ___ -20, -20, -20, -20, -20, -20, -20 // NATIONALIST SPAIN
55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55, 55 ___ 35, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35, 35 ___ -20, -20, -20, -20, -20, -20, -20 // REPUBLICAN SPAIN
55, 55, 60, 60, 55, 45, 45 ___ 25, 25, 30, 30, 25, 25, 25 ___ -30, -30, -30, -30, -30, -20, -20 // BULGARIA

hope this is useful somewhere..

ORIGINAL: omegaall
Below I hope give this difference. The big thing i can not as yet determine is teh way this difference operates. ie a change of 5 in the 30 range seems form comments not to be the same as a change of 5 in the 70 range...

Change of 5 in 30 range and in 70 range is of course a bit different thing, simply because of percentage. +5 to 30 is ~17% increase of the value, but +5 to 70 is only ~7% increase.

Anyway, thank you for the tables.

-Colonel von Blitz-

On looking at the 8.3 numbers I wonder if they are correct ??

Mike would you be able to clarify this for us?

Thanks

You guys are NOT seeing it, and I suspect you haven't tried it. WITH the new national ratings, and WITH the programmer conventions applied, you get a better view of how and why WWII turned out as it did.

That being said, just look at Korpraali's DARs as the Romanians. He's using superior tactics with inferior troops, and doing well.

That being said, just look at Korpraali's DARs as the Romanians. He's using superior tactics with inferior troops, and doing well.

He is playing the Russians who are also hopeless in 8.4. In fact the difference between the 2 countries in 41 is only 10 points in each field which is more typical of the gap in 8.3 and H2H .
I have tried the new ratings with programmer conventions and the Romanian tanks still get 1 shot per turn with 35 EXP and such cannot make targetting adjustment. I can get historical outcomes with the other versions.

Glenn,
Thsi is not an issue heer at all. If you look at my original post in this thread I just simply asked for the old version 8.3 values.

I have never raised any comment re the programmers conventions.

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

You guys are NOT seeing it, and I suspect you haven't tried it. WITH the new national ratings, and WITH the programmer conventions applied, you get a better view of how and why WWII turned out as it did.

That being said, just look at Korpraali's DARs as the Romanians. He's using superior tactics with inferior troops, and doing well.

Also on that topic I don't disagree with the intent of those conventions as applied.

If you go to your PM I sent you you will see that all I am after is a playing field of fact with respect to this discussion of version 8.3 vs 8.4x

So bluntly I AM SEEING IT!
As I am not raising any issue of dispute here.

My personal issue if any would be the way these numbers behave.. that is is a chaneg of 5 in teh 30s the same as a change of 5 in the 70s or is there some underlying mathematical curve these all sit on. Or is it a simple straight horizantal line relation.

So looking at that it is useful to see how the numbers behave .. face it a LOG base e or 10 curve is a lot different to a straight line of the y = x + c or form or a straigh horizantal one.

Stop trying to defend the new values and the programers convention. Do it too often and people may suspect that there is something wrong..

I suspect these numebsr and the applied convention can stand in their own right as they should!

Also All I did in my last post was to ask is if Mike was able to indicate if these version 8.3 numbers as posted here were in fact the correct version 8.3 values.
This question was asked simply as there appears to be a little confusion in the values. A reasonable question I feel. It may have been baddly worded, that is all.

ORIGINAL: omegaall
So looking at that it is useful to see how the numbers behave .. face it a LOG base e or 10 curve is a lot different to a straight line of the y = x + c or form or a straigh horizantal one.

I still do not have any real knowledge, but I somehow suspect that the equation gives somewhat asymptotic curve so that with value of 0, you'll get nearly 0 performance and with value 140 (max value for experience/morale IIRC) you'll get maximum performance. In this asymptotic curve 5 point change in 30 range affects more than 5 points change in 70 range.

This would mean, of course, that it really didn't matter anymore whether the experience/morale would be 120 or 130 simply because in that range the difference in performance is almost negligible: both are excellent values [:D]

On the other hand, this small change of 10 points in low range means that the performance would increase/decrease more rapidly, resulting in the fact that you'll get a lot better performance with troops of 50 experience/morale than with troops that have 40 experience/morale.

Oh well, I'm just speculating.

-Colonel von Blitz-

I would agree and something of the order of

y = 1 - (1/(x raised to n)
n >=2 ..