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Hi Gang

I need more info on the Radar System the Axis had set up

the game does not match the picture I have in my head from the reading I have been doing

Wurzburg would be a gun laying radar, so while Window is in effect, Flak should not be as good

(did Freya/Wurzburg use the same wave length, would something that interfers with one, interfer with the other ?, from my reading, the Bomber crews seemed to think so, the returning results seem to agree)

what is Mammut ?, I do not find it

there are a number of different Wurzburgs, letters and Riese and Riese E (not built)

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Hi Gang

I need more info on the Radar System the Axis had set up

the game does not match the picture I have in my head from the reading I have been doing

Wurzburg would be a gun laying radar, so while Window is in effect, Flak should not be as good

(did Freya/Wurzburg use the same wave length, would something that interfers with one, interfer with the other ?, from my reading, the Bomber crews seemed to think so, the returning results seem to agree)

what is Mammut ?, I do not find it

there are a number of different Wurzburgs, letters and Riese and Riese E (not built)

Freya and Würzburg radars operated at different frequencies. Window only jammed the Würzburg radar (and early Luftwaffe airborne radar FuG 202 if I remember correctly).

Mammut was a long range early warning (search) radar (think of it as a Freya on acid) as was Wassermann. Mammut was high power, able to detect targets at 8000m out to 300km, targets at 50m could be acquired at ~35km. Range accuracy was +/- 300m, azimuth accuracy +/- 0.5°

Würzburg Riese (FuMG 65) (Giant Würzburg) could act as fire control radar or a search radar.

Würzburg Riese E was a mobile system, used in limited numbers on rail cars.

Alfred Price "Instruments of Darkness" is the best reference I have ever seen for this. While it does not give you antenna patterns or (usually) AsEl and range precision, it does provides a lot of the technical data, although in a chatty rather than tabular format. I do remember pictures of both Mammut and Wassermann with some technical data. It also discusses each of the Allied jammers.

I don't have my copy handy at the moment, but I will look it up when I can

?

but it was the search radars that were blinded ?

according to the crews, Flak was not firing good, stats from the early raids, Flak damage was very low

a number of GB bombers that did get shot down, flew out of the Window zone and happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time as some Night Fighters were also in that area and picked them right out

plus it is stated that some of the Experts, disobeyed orders and flew to where they thought the GB would be at, and they also scored

I didn't find any info on the Mammut, but it was a quick look, but it did find just about everything else

but it was the search radars that were blinded ?

Not it wasn't. Window jammed the Würzburgs which were used for fire control (flak and search light) and nightfighter control.

Mandrel was used to jam Freya.

The experienced crews (conventional Nachtjäger) that scored were using Wilde Sau tactics (MkI eyeball) or picking off stragglers outside of the stream.

Wasn't there a great thread on JC's forum where we discussed all this before, probably 4 years or more ago (scary).

The experienced crews (conventional Nachtjäger) that scored were using Wilde Sau tactics (MkI eyeball) or picking off stragglers outside of the stream.

no the tale I am talking about were radar controlled intercepts, it was to the north of the Window zone

ORIGINAL: von Shagmeister


Wasn't there a great thread on JC's forum where we discussed all this before, probably 4 years or more ago (scary).

not sure

Mammut was to be a big surprise JC was springing on us

which after it came out, it may of caused a lot of posts

And See-Elefant, that made it into the last OB/OA

Moving this to the other fourm, talking code now

here is some information, but I have forgotten [&:] how to post tabular data so the format is hosed (anybody remember how to do it?)

Hopefully you can pick out the data you need



Name Center Frequency (MhZ) Range (miles) Function Nationality Note
Carpet 550-600 ? jammer US anti-Wurzburg
Flensburg na 130 DF homer (air) Ge anti-Monica
Freya 118-128 75 Early Warning Ge
Jagdschloss 120-158 90 fighter control Ge
Korfu na ? DF (ground) Ge anti-H2S
Lichtenstein 490 2 NF radar Ge
Mammut 118-128 200 Early Warning Ge fixed, early beam steering
Naxburg na 250 DF (ground) Ge Naxos paired with Wurzburg reflector
Naxos na 10 DF (air) Ge anti-H2S, amplitude only
Nurnburg na na pulse modulation detector Ge anti-window feature for Wurzburg
Seetakt 375 10 Naval Fire Control Ge
SN-2 90 4 NF radar Ge
Wassermann 118-128 150 Early Warning Ge rotating
Wurzburg 560 25 Gun Laying Ge
Wurzburg Riese 570 ? Fighter control Ge narrow-beam Wurzburg
Wurzlaus na na doppler detector Ge anti-window feature for Wurzburg
H2S/H2X airborn mapping Br/US
Boozer 450-600 ? radar detector Br anti-Wurzburg/ Lichtenstein
Mandrel 118-128 jammer Br anti-Freya
Monica ? ? tail-warning radar Br
Moonshine 118-128 ? deception jammer Br anti-Freya

Hi


"Mammut (Mammoth)", which essentially consisted of 16 Freyas, linked together in a giant array with 192 dipoles, 30 meters across and 10 meters high (98 by 33 feet). It was mounted on four vertical structural beams, which led British intelligence to call it "Hoarding" (Britlish for the Yank term "Billboard"). About 20 were built, with the first going into service in 1942

Two Mammuts were often built back-to-back to give bidirectional coverage. Mammut's operating specifications were similar to that of Freya, with the same 2.4 meter / 125 Freya band, 3 microsecond pulse width, and 500 Hz PRF. However, Mammut had a much higher peak power of 200 kW, giving it a range of about 320 kilometers (200 miles). It used horizontal lobe switching to obtain positional accuracy of about half a degree in the horizontal plane

hope this helps

Some nice images:
http://www.radarworld.org/germany.html

More info:
http://www.100-jahre-radar.de/vortraege ... _Radar.pdf

ORIGINAL: von Shagmeister

but it was the search radars that were blinded ?

Not it wasn't. Window jammed the Würzburgs which were used for fire control (flak and search light) and nightfighter control.

Mandrel was used to jam Freya.

The experienced crews (conventional Nachtjäger) that scored were using Wilde Sau tactics (MkI eyeball) or picking off stragglers outside of the stream.

okay was able to get more into this side of it

agree, Window messes with Wurzburg and nightfighter radar, Mandrel messed with Freya

orders att the start of the battle for Hamburg, units were instucted to start reusing Mandrel on the way in to targets

question, who use Mandrel at this time ?

according to the game, Mandrel came in later, according to history, it was common (simi common ?) device

when the Jammers work, they are a blast to play with, do we, should we, bring in jammers from the start ?

Here's a quick sketchy rundown; I think it would be awesome if you could have each radar have a different range at different altitude bands as they did in real life:

------------------------------

Countermeasures:

German Band Switching:
The Germans managed to overcome Carpet jamming by providing Wuerzburg and Mannheim with a second band in the fall of 1943. The new band was centered around 58 cm / 520 MHz, in contrast to the original band of 54 cm / 560 MHz. A year later, they added a third band, around 66 cm / 455 MHz. An adapter named "Wismar" was introduced in the summer of 1944 to allow rapid switching between bands.

------------------------------

Improved Lichtenstein SN2 Airborne Radar
Could cut through the interference of early Window, since the British had cut Window to wavelengths that did not affect SN2.

------------------------------

Radars:

---------

Seetakt
80 cm (368 MHz) wavelength

NOTES: German Naval Radar; was used until 1944; at whcih point it had been replaced with Wassermann.

------------------------------

Mammut (IOC 1942)
2.4 meter (125 Mhz) wavelength

NOTES: Essentially was sixteen Freyas hooked together in a giant array 98 feet by 33 feet big. It was a fixed radar and did not rotate. However, it was the first phased array radar, using electronic steering to scan across a field of view 100 degrees wide. Often, two Mammuts were built back-to-back to give bidirectional coverage.

Could not really determine altitude; was used as an early-warning radar.

Detection ranges of targets at different altitudes

Can Detect Targets at 164 feet at 21.75 miles
Can Detect Targets at 328 feet at 31.07 miles
Can Detect Targets at 3,281 feet at 62.14 miles
Can Detect Targets at 9,843 feet at 108.74 miles
Can Detect Targets at 19,685 feet at 155.34 miles
Can Detect Targets at 26,247 feet at 186.41 miles

------------------------------

Wassermann (IOC 1942)
2.5m to 2.3m (120 to 130 MHz) wavelength.

NOTES: Essentially eight or more Freyas mounted vertically on a steerable tower 190 feet high. Were used to accurately get a fix on targets.

Detection ranges of targets at different altitudes

Can Detect Targets at 164 feet at 21.75 miles
Can Detect Targets at 328 feet at 31.07 miles
Can Detect Targets at 3,281 feet at 49.71 miles
Can Detect Targets at 9,843 feet at 80.78 miles
Can Detect Targets at 19,685 feet at 118.06 miles
Can Detect Targets at 26,247 feet at 130.49 miles

------------------------------

Freya
2.5m to 2.3m (120 to 130 MHz) wavelength.

NOTES: Could not accurately determine altitude; was used as an early warning radar; e.g. somethings out there. Accurately fixing target locations was left to other radars.

Detection ranges of targets at different altitudes

Can Detect Targets at 164 feet at 12.43 miles
Can Detect Targets at 328 feet at 18.64 miles
Can Detect Targets at 3,281 feet at 37.28 miles
Can Detect Targets at 9,843 feet at 62.14 miles
Can Detect Targets at 26,247 feet at 74.56 miles

------------------------------

Jagdschlosz
2.3m to 1.8m (129 to 165 MHz) wavelength

NOTES: Used for tracking bomber formations over long ranges. Had little to no altitude determination capability.

Detection ranges of targets at different altitudes

Can Detect Targets at 328 feet at 9.32 miles
Can Detect Targets at 3,281 feet at 31.07 miles
Can Detect Targets at 9,843 feet at 49.71 miles
Can Detect Targets at 19,685 feet at 74.56 miles
Can Detect Targets at 26,247 feet at 74.56 miles

------------------------------

Würzburg Riese (Giant Würzburg)
53 cm (566 MHz) wavelength

NOTES: Basically, take a Würzburg with a 10 ft dish and give it a 24 foot 7 inch dish to increase antenna gain, and you have the Giant Würzburg.

48 mile range

------------------------------

Mannheim (Mid 1943 IOC)
50 cm wavelength or 600 MHz

Great info Ryan.

Were the frequency agile systems before Wismar switched manually by the operator?

do we have any idea on how many or where at these Mammuts were at ?

we cna check the code to see if and how it works with alt, but over all inthe data base it is just range