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I usually don't post requests for hints on play, but I am at my wits end.

My allied opponent has placed A large squadron of B-17s and a squadron of LB-30s at Port Moresby. In three short weeks, he has obliterated Lae and Kavieng. I do not have Rabaul yet, as I was using it as bait to lure in his CVs (got all of them in the trap except Lexington and the Brits minus Hermes). I thought after I destroyed his CVs, it would only be a matter of time before Rabaul fell. But....

Those B-17s are ravaging me. I can't base anything except out of Truk. He hasn't moved any 4Es to Rabaul (I'm bombing with Betties every day), but I have valuable troops seiging Rabaul. It's a stalemate - He loses ships getting supply to Rabaul, but I can't keep my CVs on station all the time.

How do I try to stop his B-17s? I keep waiting for him to run out of supply, but without Rabaul, and a destroyed Lae and Kavieng, he can run convoy after convoy into PM. He's not really active anywhere else.

I was thinking of risking a BB bombardment force down there...but do you think it's worth it?

Geez, if you figure out how to hold off 4-engine bombers let me know....it's ridiculous, how B-17s and B-24s can singlehandedly destroy any airfield or warship (including DDs) within a dozen hexes.

I just lost a bunch of DDs to Liberators at 10+ hexes....in reality, there's no way every DD in a TF gets whacked by heavies at 10,000 feet. You also need a size 5 or 6 airfield, b/c they will shut down anything less than that within 2 days, even with significant CAP.

I love this game, but the accuracy and power of the heavies is easily the most innacurate model in the game, imho.

But Betties torpedoing every DD in a TF at twice that range is accurate? The whole game is a glass house, so be careful where you toss them stones. [;)]

Moving ships is one thing but thos Forts could annihilate and airfield in range...seems ok by me...you chose not to get Rabaul operational when you had the chance.

ORIGINAL: dtravel

But Betties torpedoing every DD in a TF at twice that range is accurate? The whole game is a glass house, so be careful where you toss them stones. [;)]

Betties/Nells have a proven history of sinking warships at battle speed - see Repulse and Prince of Wales. I am not sure a B-17 ever hit a warship at battle speed, let alone sunk any. Even B-17s attacking a mortally wounded Hiryu at Midway could come no closer than 500 yards w/ their bombs - and that was bombing from 3,600 feet.

ORIGINAL: ColFrost

I usually don't post requests for hints on play, but I am at my wits end.

My allied opponent has placed A large squadron of B-17s and a squadron of LB-30s at Port Moresby. In three short weeks, he has obliterated Lae and Kavieng. I do not have Rabaul yet, as I was using it as bait to lure in his CVs (got all of them in the trap except Lexington and the Brits minus Hermes). I thought after I destroyed his CVs, it would only be a matter of time before Rabaul fell. But....

Those B-17s are ravaging me. I can't base anything except out of Truk. He hasn't moved any 4Es to Rabaul (I'm bombing with Betties every day), but I have valuable troops seiging Rabaul. It's a stalemate - He loses ships getting supply to Rabaul, but I can't keep my CVs on station all the time.

How do I try to stop his B-17s? I keep waiting for him to run out of supply, but without Rabaul, and a destroyed Lae and Kavieng, he can run convoy after convoy into PM. He's not really active anywhere else.

I was thinking of risking a BB bombardment force down there...but do you think it's worth it?

Send your CVs and a BB bombardment force down to whack PM simultaneously. Any planes that he has on naval attack will go after your CVs and get wiped. Then once your BBs hit PM you can send the CVs in to finish it off.

However, REMEMBER - the Allies have plenty of engineers and can repair things very quickly. So unless you can open up another base from which you can send in level bombers to keep the air field at PM closed you will have recurring problems.

The Japanese player ALWAYS has to go after Rabaul, and early.

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi

ORIGINAL: The Duke
I just lost a bunch of DDs to Liberators at 10+ hexes....in reality, there's no way every DD in a TF gets whacked by heavies at 10,000 feet. You also need a size 5 or 6 airfield, b/c they will shut down anything less than that within 2 days, even with significant CAP.

I love this game, but the accuracy and power of the heavies is easily the most innacurate model in the game, imho.

Were ya playin' against the artificial stupidity? It gets more hits than dancers at a Duke LaCrosse team party...

ORIGINAL: The Duke

ORIGINAL: dtravel

But Betties torpedoing every DD in a TF at twice that range is accurate? The whole game is a glass house, so be careful where you toss them stones. [;)]

Betties/Nells have a proven history of sinking warships at battle speed - see Repulse and Prince of Wales. I am not sure a B-17 ever hit a warship at battle speed, let alone sunk any. Even B-17s attacking a mortally wounded Hiryu at Midway could come no closer than 500 yards w/ their bombs - and that was bombing from 3,600 feet.

This has been hashed over more than a few times on the forum.

Not many B-17s did sink moving things, they were withdrawn to other duties relatively early in the war. B-24s did, though - credited by AAF with sinking at least 3 cruisers, although this is arguable. They definitely did sink one cruiser maneuvering at around 20-25 knts (it had been damaged previously.) They also sank more than one DD as well as other lesser warships. The tactics they used to do much of this are NOT duplicable in WITP though (low level attacks at night). The Japanese I-go offensive in China was in part (or mainly, depending on who you read) in response to B-24s devastating shipping from China to the Philippines from Chinese bases.

Originally, B-17s were used in developing skip-bombing attacks. The AAF switched to smaller bombers after the tactics were proven.

You might also consider trying Nik's mod (ver. 5.02), which apparently tones down the ability of heavies to close down airbases in one or two days, beefs up the effects of flak, etc. But I know that doesn't help you in your current game. So: what those guys said. Send a Bombardment TF with support from your CVs. If, as you say, you've already attritted the Allied carriers in 1942, your CVs only have to worry about land-based air. Stay out of torpedo bomber range of enemy airbases and your carriers will likely be ok...

Thanks for the help. I think I can do the operation above by simultaneous restocking Lae and hitting them at the same time. Going to take crackerjack timing.

ORIGINAL: ADavidB
The Japanese player ALWAYS has to go after Rabaul, and early.

Yeah, well, NOW I know that. [:D]

You need alot of troops/engineers to keep a base going. It is also desireable to have alot of supporting bases flying LR CAP over the main base. In my PBEM my Japanese opponent regularily smashes my airbases but can't keep them inoperable for very long because the bases have adjacent bases which support them. Usually one can only concentrate on one base at a time. I've rendered a few of his bases inoperable and keep them that way because they are isolated. (Amboina, Kendari, Rabaul, Luganville). If he had some fighters on CAP from supporting bases I'd not be able to keep these bases down, at least not all of them.

Attack.

Throw more ground troops into Rabuul and take it. Like a division.
Send an entire invasion force of several divisions to take Port Moresby away from him.
Don't piddle around with Lae and Kavieng, they aren't important to the problem. Unless the date is a lot later than the early '42 I assume.

If you have killed a two or three allied carriers, your navy is largely unopposed. In my (very limited) experience, 2 carriers can cover invasions against early allied LBA. None can even work unless you sail right up to Australia. If he has tons of power in the area, send 4 carriers. If you don't invade, send the fleet to pound Port Moresby. BB bombardment will crush the place kill heavies on the ground. Heavy bombers are not something you can solve without lots of CAP or hitting their base. As you cannot use CAP, you have to use the other.

Why can you not keep carriers on station? If you have beaten up his carrier fleet, operate the KB by divisions. Three divisions rotating should be able to keep one close enough to Rabuul to bomb transport fleets. Or am I just an idiot on this one?

ORIGINAL: The Duke

Geez, if you figure out how to hold off 4-engine bombers let me know....it's ridiculous, how B-17s and B-24s can singlehandedly destroy any airfield or warship (including DDs) within a dozen hexes.

I just lost a bunch of DDs to Liberators at 10+ hexes....in reality, there's no way every DD in a TF gets whacked by heavies at 10,000 feet. You also need a size 5 or 6 airfield, b/c they will shut down anything less than that within 2 days, even with significant CAP.

I love this game, but the accuracy and power of the heavies is easily the most innacurate model in the game, imho.

Tell me about it...[:@]
(These are all from my opponents invasion of Amboina and represent 4 days worth of combat.)
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Day Air attack on Soerabaja , at 22,65

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 5
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 8

Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 312

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 2 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 1 destroyed, 6 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 5 destroyed, 40 damaged

Japanese Ships
PG Nishho Maru, Bomb hits 12, on fire, heavy damage
ML Niizaki, Bomb hits 44, on fire, heavy damage
PG Edo Maru, Bomb hits 11, on fire, heavy damage
PG Shoei Maru, Bomb hits 11, on fire, heavy damage
ML Kyosai, Bomb hits 28, on fire, heavy damage
PG Saiko Maru, Bomb hits 13, on fire, heavy damage
PC Sonan Maru #5, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
PG Shotoku Maru, Bomb hits 10, on fire, heavy damage
PG Fukui Maru, Bomb hits 9, on fire, heavy damage
PG Daido Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
PC Showa Maru #3, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
PC Sonan Maru #6, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Konei Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
175 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

Port hits 24
Port fuel hits 5
Port supply hits 9

I'm just thankful my important ships left port 2 turns earlier after his first raid devastated the airfield. That's why so few fighters in the air. There's another 50 or so sitting damaged on the ground.
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Against the smaller raids I do better, especiallly with 80+ experience pilots[:D]

Day Air attack on Nanning , at 40,38

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 13
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 9
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 8

Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 35

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 2 damaged
Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 9 destroyed, 17 damaged
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Of course, payback is hell [:D] [&o]

Day Air attack on TF at 40,71

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged

Allied Ships
BB California
BB Colorado, Torpedo hits 1

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Day Air attack on TF at 40,71

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 12
A6M3a Zero x 7
G4M1 Betty x 70

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 11 destroyed, 41 damaged

Allied Ships
CA Australia, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Valiant, Torpedo hits 8, on fire, heavy damage
CL Perth
CL Boise, Torpedo hits 1
CL Dragon
CL Java, Torpedo hits 1
CA Quincy
CL Sumatra, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CA Vincennes
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 38,74

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 17
A6M3a Zero x 18
G4M1 Betty x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 6 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Tennessee, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 36,75

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Resolution, Torpedo hits 1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 39,74

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 13
A6M3 Zero x 10
B5N Kate x 5

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 19
F4F-4 Wildcat x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 9 destroyed
A6M3 Zero: 6 destroyed
B5N Kate: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
F4F-4 Wildcat: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
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Day Air attack on TF at 39,74

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 31
Ki-49 Helen x 11

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 18
F4F-4 Wildcat x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 5 destroyed
Ki-49 Helen: 3 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 4 destroyed, 3 damaged
F4F-4 Wildcat: 9 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied Ships
CV Indomitable, Bomb hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 39,74

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 46
A6M3a Zero x 17
G4M1 Betty x 13

Allied aircraft
Seafire x 10
F4F-4 Wildcat x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 9 destroyed
A6M3a Zero: 4 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 4 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Seafire: 9 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat: 12 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CV Indomitable, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 39,74

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 3
Ki-49 Helen x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49 Helen: 7 damaged

Allied Ships
BB Resolution
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 39,74

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 11 damaged

Allied Ships
CL Dragon
BB Tennessee
BB New Mexico, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
DD John D. Ford
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Anyways, 4E can be deadly. So can Bettys. C'est le WitP!

Chez

ORIGINAL: alfrake

Attack.

Throw more ground troops into Rabuul and take it. Like a division.
Send an entire invasion force of several divisions to take Port Moresby away from him.
Don't piddle around with Lae and Kavieng, they aren't important to the problem. Unless the date is a lot later than the early '42 I assume.

If you have killed a two or three allied carriers, your navy is largely unopposed. In my (very limited) experience, 2 carriers can cover invasions against early allied LBA. None can even work unless you sail right up to Australia. If he has tons of power in the area, send 4 carriers. If you don't invade, send the fleet to pound Port Moresby. BB bombardment will crush the place kill heavies on the ground. Heavy bombers are not something you can solve without lots of CAP or hitting their base. As you cannot use CAP, you have to use the other.

Why can you not keep carriers on station? If you have beaten up his carrier fleet, operate the KB by divisions. Three divisions rotating should be able to keep one close enough to Rabuul to bomb transport fleets. Or am I just an idiot on this one?

I have started sending my carriers down on station, but, they have to go back to Truk to refuel. AO replenishment fleets get hammered if they come sout of Kavieng. And unfortunately, one B-25 got through in a 64 plane raid and put a bomb into the Ammo Storage of Soryu. She'll survive, but has to go back to my main ship repair base for a month.

I think your main mistake here is not whether or not you can close the airfield using bombardment attacks, carrier or land-based airfield attacks or ground troops but your doctrine.

You aren't, IMO, conducting operationally decisive missions. Sure your fighters can defend many of your airbases from enemy 4-engined bombers but what's the point in that? Your fighters will do well against small raids but not against his larger raids. Where are those larger raids aimed? At what he perceives to be the critical junctures around which the outcome of the war will hinge.

I would counsel you to either maximally concentrate your anti-bomber defences ( interceptors and AAA) at those bases OR abandon their defence ( which is not the same as abandoning them... you can put some AAA in there and run in single-ship supply convoys to both attrit the enemy bomber formations and effect resupply sufficient to keep your troops alive) and choose to concentrate your force elsewhere in an operationally decisive manner.


However that is a defensive solution and therefore inherently inferior to an offensive solution. With a greater short-term committment of resources you should be able to take Port Moresby. Concentrate your carriers, concentrate your ground forces, concentrate your AAA, rest and recuperate your interceptor squadrons, concentrate your long-range bombers, concentrate your battleline into a massive bomardment flotilla ( anything less than half of your total BB and CA force is insufficient), bring in triple or quadruple the supply you think you need and then strike.

There should be a few stages to your plan:

1. Defensive:
Bring in ground troops to finish taking Rabaul. If you think you need 1 division bring in 3. It must be taken quickly. When Rabaul falls you should have many AAA regiments already landed and Army Interceptors ready to be flown in. The enemy will attempt to bomb Rabaul into submission but with concentration of AAA and interception assets you should be able to fight a much more even battle and attrit his bomber force somewhat. This re-focussing of enemy power will allow you to build up all the surrounding bases to level 4 airfields.


2. Steam into range of his LBA with your bombardment group, covered by your entire CV fleet and followed by your invasion fleet. Go for a fighter-heavy carrier load and set everything to CAP. He will lose some bombers to your CAP but, more importantly, will be distracted from bombing the more important transports. While he is distracted attempting to sink your warships launch airfield attacks against Rabaul from your dispersed fields. Where there is fighter escort attack during the day. If there is none attack at lower altitude at night. You will take heavy losses to your airforce but if the operation is decisive there will be a tremendous pay-off and the losses will be worth it.... they will also be FAR less than the losses you would suffer from another 6 months of attrition.

With the airfield closed or either severely damaged your bombardment TF, covered by the carriers, should be able to make it into range to attack. The 1st bombardment should close the airfield. Stick around and bombard the troops. Add your LBA into the mix to attrit the enemy CDs and ground troops. The choice of whether to commit your carrier-based aircraft to this mission will depend on circumstances but if you've brought enough weight of shell and LBA to the operation your CVs should be able to cover the operation from far out at sea ( limiting the enemy willingness to respond with Surface TFs) so I would suggest not committing the carriers to ground attacks but preserving them to fight off enemy carriers.


3. Land your troops while keeping the airbase shut at all times. If you've brought triple the force you think you'll need then you probably will have just enough to take PM and all the trapped planes and aviators will fall to you. If he is basing 300 to 400 bombers there then you will have just robbed him of many useful squadrons which he won't get back for many months AND about two months worth of bomber production whilst capturing an important base for your forces.


Thus your tactics fit your operational needs and the operation described above achieves many important strategic objectives. The main mistake many people make is to concentrate on winning individual battles ( tactical level) or a series of battles ( operations) in really stylish ways but then either NOT following up for strategically decisive results OR simply finding that those wins do not lead to strategically decisive results.

So, take PM and try to destroy his 4-engined bombers with it but do so by concentrating most of your losses in your most replaceable assets ( airplanes and ground troops) rather than through continued attrition of rare and specialised surface shipping.

Always figure out what your strategy for achieving your national policy objectives is and then never commit to an operation which doesn't further that strategy. Attritional fighting in the PM region absolutely does not fit any viable Japanese strategy so it should be avoided at all costs. Better to commit KB, your BBs, most of your Bettys and 4 to 6 divisions for 1 month than to tie down half that force for the next 6 months and end up in a worse strategic position.

The opportunity cost of that lesser committment over a longer time period is far larger than the cost of that larger but more time-limited committment and Japanese command is all about opportunity cost.

B-17's aren't totally infallible. I'm up against a VERY good Jap opponent who is in the process of taking the HI. I took the advice of some and concentrated my defense solely on Pearl Harbor and let him move into all the other bases, including Lahaina. Big mistake. I thought I could shut him down at Lahaina with the -17's. I have 2 bomb groups shuttling back and forth from the West Coast, plus another bomb group transitioning to B-17's. So that's, what, like at least 150 B-17's. Problem is, I don't have the fighter strength to properly escort them. Some will argue they don't need escort and most will get through. This is quite true, but on average 50% or more of the raid is damaged and down for maintenence the next day, which in turn takes a good 4-8 days to get each unit back to full strength. Since the bombers go in pretty much unescorted the bomber morale plummets (the several times I sent escorts they were slaughtered and the 108 zero's on CAP buzzed around the raid groups like really pissed off hornets guarding the nest). When morale drops below 50, there is a good chance the unit won't fly and even if it does my understanding is that low morale affects bomb performance. If heavy AA is in place it forces the bombers to a higher altitude, thus further reducing accuracy. So, my B-17 raid performance slowly fades to the point it just isn't worth it to keep sending them (though I still do since I'm up against a wall in the game and simply can't afford to let him take Pearl without a heavy fight).

Sooooo, if you really want Rabaul, I would suggest using your now unchallenged carriers to LCAP Rabaul and send in heavy AA units to support the ground troops. These two things will attrit your opponent considerably. The B-17's will never go away entirely, but you should be able to greatly impact their performance to the point you can take Rabaul and send in your LBA to take the heat. Remember though, you won't be shooting down many B-17's. They're too durable. The best you can do is damage a bunch of them and keep their numbers down on a day to day bases. Eventually, he'll run his pool down and that will affect him, too.

Of course, there's always doing other options, especially now that his carriers aren't much of a threat, like taking Suva [:D]

Personally, I wouldn't send in my CVs. Once he spots them he will go into Nav Attack mode. With 80+ 4Es enough may get through your cap to land some hits, plus they could chew up your carrier based fighters. Yes, he will take heavy losses too, but as an allied player I would be happy to do that, he has tons of replacements. Once he hits one or two of your carriers with stray 500lb bombs he will send in the beuaforts to finish them off.

Use your plentiful supply of BBs and screen them at a distance with your CVs. Set up 2 TFs of 3 or 4 BBs and make runs. Hitting PM every couple of days for a week or two and you will reduce it to a pile of rubble.

However, frankly, 80 4Es should not be enough to stop a massed invasion of Rabaul anyway. How many troops does he have defending it?

Air Griff, that's interesting that your opponent is invading Hawaii. You say you should've defended Lahaiana etc., but I'm not sure you have the troops to garrison every Hawaiian island enough to prevent a beachhead.

Are you posting an AAR on this game? Be fun to watch...

How to stop heavies...? very hard question
If they are withou escort you need high skilled pilots flying good ofensive power aircraft...armed with 20mm cannons at least
And you ned same number as bombers at least, twice the bomber's number is better

And if they have good morale they will go through first time anyway...but you will have week or two of free time until they regain morale and numbers...

check this, my opponents advancing from Timor, they wiped out Amboina and I emptied Kendari airfield, now Menado is the target. After this airstrike I did not seen heavies for three weeks

1943-06-28
Day Air attack on Menado , at 39,67

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 13
A6M3a Zero x 16
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 37
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 17

Allied aircraft
F-5A Lightning x 6
B-17E Fortress x 72
PB4Y Liberator x 7
B-24D Liberator x 125

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 4 destroyed, 5 damaged
A6M3a Zero: 2 destroyed, 13 damaged
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 3 destroyed, 32 damaged
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 3 destroyed, 11 damaged
L2D2 Tabby: 5 destroyed
Ki-57-II Topsy: 8 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 33 destroyed, 6 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 20 destroyed, 45 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
432 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

Airbase hits 13
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 32

Arkady, this a Nik mod result?