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A brief question from a WiF novice (who's eagerly looking forward to MWiF):

I know that destroyers weren't covered in WiF, except in one of the modules (Convoys in Flames...?). Anyway, will DDs be in MWiF? And if not, how does the game simulate ASW? It seems strange to me that a nation would protect its convoy routes only with CAs and heavier ships.

From what I can remember, in WiF, destroyers are considered part of the combat strength of the counters already present.

The cruiser USS Quincy does not have sonar or depth charges. But the destroyers screening her do. That's why the cruiser has an ASW value during sub combat. (BB's and CV's themselves do not, but I guess that's 'cause the destroyers stay with the capital ship, instead of "prosecuting" the sonar contact. *shrugs*)

Anyway, the seapower nations each built literally hundreds of DD's, pre- and during the war. If you included 1 counter for every 10 destroyers, you would still have a problem with gameboard congestion. (Subs are also a counter-unit that represents many individual boats. Think of them as an indication of your "concentration of effort" of your silent service.)

My apologies if you did not wish to hear from the "peanut gallery"...

Hey, all replies are welcome and appreciated. [:)] I assumed that board congestion was the issue, and a compelling one at that. But in a computer game, I was wondering if it couldn't have been possible to simulate some sort of ASW escort factors into the convoy protection system. I know this has already been covered somewhere, but I couldn't find the thread. No big deal, I was just curious.

Destroyers in Flames expansion kit [:D]

I know that destroyers weren't covered in WiF, except in one of the modules (Convoys in Flames...?). Anyway, will DDs be in MWiF? And if not, how does the game simulate ASW? It seems strange to me that a nation would protect its convoy routes only with CAs and heavier ships.

Part of the answer is in the scales of WiF :

- 1 TRS, 1 AMPH or 6 CP = 1 million tons of merchant shipping (100 to 300 ships - 180 average).
- 1 CP = 150 000 – 170 000 tons of merchant shipping (15 to 55 ships - 30 average).
- 1 SCS or CV (SiF & CLiF) = 1 capital ship plus 4 to 6 DD.
- 1 SUB = 30 first line submarines (plus many more obsolete).
- 1 ASW = around 5 to 20 DD/DE/corvette type units, depending on which class & the unit's factors, etc., etc.
- 1 ASW-CV units = around 6 CVEs.

TRS = Military Transport
AMPH = Amphibious Transports
CP = Convoy Point
SCS = Surface Combat Ship (CL, CA, BB)
SUB = Submarine
ASW = Anti-Submarine Warfare unit.

ASW is in the rules See 11.5.10 Submarine combat (WiF Raw 7)

To get the non- phasing side’s total ASW factors add:

2 for each SCS included;
1 for each CV included;
1 for each air-to-sea factor included (including those on CVs that aren’t damaged) during fine, rain or snow;
1 for every 5 USA or Commonwealth convoy points included in a combat in 1942;
2 for every 5 USA or Commonwealth convoy points included in a combat in 1943; and
3 for every 5 USA or Commonwealth convoy points included in a combat in 1944 or later.

If you are using 22.4.6 Light Cruisers Option 75 (Cruisers in Flames ), to get the non- phasing side’s total ASW factors add:

0 for each BB included;
0 for each CV included;
1 for each air-to-sea factor included (including those on CVs that aren’t damaged) during fine, rain or snow;
1 for every 2 USA or Commonwealth convoy points included in a combat in 1942;
2 for every 2 USA or Commonwealth convoy points included in a combat in 1943; and
3 for every 2 USA or Commonwealth convoy points included in a combat in 1944 or later

Thanks for the breakdowns--very illuminating. Are CLs featured in the game then?

They are in the "Cruisers in Flames" expansion pack for the boardgame. I believe that this expansion pack is planned to be a part of MWiF.

See post #23 of this thread: tm.asp?m=1082338

In there, Shannon O'Keets lists all the goodies he plans to put in MWiF.

(The boardgame is from ADG, here: http://www.a-d-g.com.au/ )

Ah, thank you. I can't bloody wait for this thing to publish.

ORIGINAL: Rexor

Ah, thank you. I can't bloody wait for this thing to publish.

Me too. And add my wife to that list.

This will be one of many issues that will create feedback once the game is released and the mass of WWII students in the world start to play with it. The Convoy in Flames module is excellent and I'm very happy it will be part of MWiF. Ditto Cruisers in Flame. I greatly admire the naval system in WiF, it is a very elegant design solution to modeling naval combat. But with the Sub war, there is a ways to go yet. I'm hoping MWiF will serve as a platform (with strong sales) that will promote further development of the game to more accurately model the war.

With convoy escorts, here is an example. The first time the British tried to bomb a submarine with airplanes, the bombs bounced off the water, back into the air, and exploded and destroyed the attacking aircraft. The U-Boat under attack captured the aircrew and took them back to Germany. Yet in WiF from the first turn anything that can fly makes the best convoy escort you can find. And it is so nice to keep the Focke-Wulf Condors at bay with those convenient land-based Spitfire squadrons. More fun is to be had when a group of Battleships on patrol find the WolfPack still looking for a Convoy and the Surface factors of each are used to determine the combat results.

I am testing a lot of House Rules for the Sub war in a game this summer, if you are interested in tweaking the realism of current WiF in this area I'd be happy to correspond with you.