Matrix Games Forums

Hi folks , first venture into here [;)]

Anyhoo , loved both these games when they came out, but i remember in BOB there was a spitfire engine plant in southampton that was easily flattened by the LW and stopped spit production cold on day 1.

Is this going to be the same for the new BOB OOB/production model? as it really was a game breaker , even IF it was supposdly realistic placement of the factory.

Really looking forward to these puppies .. good going

Welcome Rob. Good to see a fellow WiTPer[;)]

I think you'll enjoy these new versions. Looking good so far[8D]

As Speedy says Welcome Rob!

This new version of BOB@BTR is a welcome addtion to the Matrix range.

MJT

Hi Rob,

trouble is that the Supermarine plants that made the Spitfire were in Southampton ( Itchen, Woolston and Eastleigh ).

Luckily the game mirrors real life, in that if these are flattened by the LW, then the production disperses to many smaller plants. Production is affected for a few days ( 10? ) by this.

Also remember that there are Spitfire "spares" in the pool and the shadow plant in Birmingham just about to fire up. This Castle Bromwich plant needs to be slightly larger, in my view.

I don't see it as a game breaker. The Southampton plants were there, the LW knew they were there and they did sucessfully destroy one.

regards Otis

Thanks for the replies all , I'm relieved to see that dispersal will be implemented in BOB ( as it was in BTR). very relieved by that piece of info.

I am really looking forward to these games as its been years since i played them ..

Speedy .. nice to see a fellow Witp'er .. here . although i kew you were beta testing and playign vs Nik ..

I'll be patiently awaiting these games .. thank you to all involved.

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

Hi folks , first venture into here [;)]

Anyhoo , loved both these games when they came out, but i remember in BOB there was a spitfire engine plant in southampton that was easily flattened by the LW and stopped spit production cold on day 1.

Is this going to be the same for the new BOB OOB/production model? as it really was a game breaker , even IF it was supposdly realistic placement of the factory.

Really looking forward to these puppies .. good going

That was realistic. Apparently the Luftwaffe did nto actually know it was there, though, even though "every child in England" apparently did.

The Luftwaffe's intelligence during the BoB was absolutely atrocious. They didn't even know which airfield was a Fighter Command airfield and which one was not.

(having read the above post but otisabuser now, maybe I'm wrong! I'll leave it here for discussions sake, though. )

The Luftwaffe's intelligence during the BoB was absolutely atrocious. They didn't even know which airfield was a Fighter Command airfield and which one was not.
 
 
well, you also got to remember, it did not matter who owned the airfield
 
FC could land and take off from BC or CC fields, just as they did and the others could also
 
so, the idea or thought, that they were attacking airfields that did not matter, is not right
 
besides, remember that most of the GE airfields though out the war, were nothing but fields (units from the East had lots of trouble when they came West or south and had to land on real Airfield runways)
 
But...
 
Have to agree with the idea, the Intell was really bad
 
even worse, the reading of the intell they did get was bad
 
 

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

well, you also got to remember, it did not matter who owned the airfield

What I read was that they didn't know which airfields were sector airfields, and that was the really crucial thing they missed. The system Dowding had was very centralised, if they flattened Biggin Hill, say, then they would have seriously impaired the RAF. But they didn't actually know about Biggin Hill's importance. (in fact apparently they didn't even know how Fighter Command was organised, but - who knows! if they knew about that spit factory maybe I'm talking a load of ****. )

Re the German attack on the Spitfire plants. Accounts I have read presumed that the attack on Woolston was to destroy the Spitfire production. There is nothing I have read stating that the LW definitley knew the Spitfire was made there.

However, it was no secret that the pre-war schneider trophy winning Supermarine planes were made at the Supermarine plant at Woolston. The Castle Bromwich shadow plant was also later attacked. Again whether this was a deliberate attempt to stop Spitfire production or a random attack on a factory beleived to be involved in general wartime production, I do not know.

What is bizarre about the LW targeting strategy is that poor itelligence was compounded by equally poor selection of targets. Kesselring etc were given various directives on what to attack, but often wasted their effort on a series of diverse targets rather than a knock out blow on any. Why divert effort on oil and grain storage when Fighter Command and fighter production were the key ?

Also Supermarine was attacked on the 15th September, unsucessfully. Attacked again on the 26th and destroyed.

The Short Brothers factory at Rochester was bombed on the 15th August during the Eagle attacks, supposedly in a bid to stop Stirling production. Curious that in the attempt to wipe away Fighter Command that a bomber factory should be struck off but the fighter one not attacked until a month later. [&:]

Perhaps the LW did think Supermarine just made seaplanes ?

Just been reading a book by a respected author on BoB. By chance came across some before and after LW aerial intelligence photos of the Spitfire plant at Woolston. In both pictures they were labelled in German as belonging to not Supermarine ( or Vickers ) but ......... A V Roe !

Not sure what exactly was going on there. Confusion over whether AVRO owned Supermarine rather than Vickers ? Or more likely the mistaken belief that the factory was a Saro one who were owned by AVRO. Saro also made seaplanes, you see.

If the latter is true and the LW thought they were bombing a flying-boat manufacturer, then where did they imagine that the Spitfires were being produced ?

.....The Woolston factory sat right on the waterfront. It originally had the huge letters spelling "Supermarine" on the roof. After the take-over it then had "Vickers" right up to the start of the war.

These would have been plainly visible to any German sailor coming out of Southampton docks. [&:]

LOL .. i had a chuckle over LW intel there [:D].

No idea it was so poor. Maybe this might get implemented by just showing generic icons on map until they get proper recon results and then it may be badly wrong to boot.

While this might well badly hamper LW attacks on AC production , by the recent posts it should get hampered badly , probably the same in BTR too but with a 'better' intel base and much more accurate ariel recon marking targets for bomber attacks .. also no 'loss' of intel over time as factories don't have a habit of moving very far [;)]. Albeit it might have switched to a new output its still where it was when last seen . But instead of being a 109 plant it might be a night fighter plant 4 months later and allied attacks against it would be 'wasted' if allies wanted to concentrate vs day fighter production ( or unless more recent recon or sig int had identified its new capacity/output )

just an idea .. (hides in a fire proof box [;)])

Idea is not bad, but it may be too late in the game right now to try and do anything with, and maybe held back to think about for later
 
one hassle with the idea, without doing a random setup, each game the sites will still be the same, so on game two or three, the GE is still going to know to bomb site 321, if they know what it is or not
 
plus, players do have a trait, where as they may start up a game as the other side, just to find what they want to find
 
for BTR and to a little effect BoB, the disperal sites can add a little of this blind intel to the game, as it is not going to put the same factory into the same site each game, but....
 
 

Hi HS,

re the Random set up idea. I don't think we actually need anything so severe. We would only need to swap a couple of plants over ( one or two AFAC and CFAC in BoB, perhaps the same in BTR ), to sow the seeds of doubt into the attacking player.

For instance, if the attacking player in BoB could now no longer be sure that knocking out the three known Spitfire plants in Britain would be enough to halt production, it would alter the entire strategy. The player would also have to to attack a broader spectrum of targets, say Bristols or Boulton Paul in case they were the substitute plants.

Having said that, I know it is too late to try.....