Matrix Games Forums

I just downloaded the 2.1 version. I haven't been able to play it yet, but noticed some changes:

1) Some rail lines seem to have been removed entirely (eg. Constanta-Odessa, Riga-Tallinn, the one going through Uman, and one going over Dnepr West of Dnepropetrovsk. I think there were others, but they didn't catch the eye so badly.) In addition to this, some rail lines have been moved a little.

2) Some mountains have been added; most notably on the Russian side of Russo-Rumanian border, and one next to Sevastopol. The ones on the border, coupled with the removal of Constanta-Odessa railroad, seem to make this area almost a non-front; in the beginning for the Germans, and later in the war for the Soviets. No easy way to get supply except through a rail going through the long mountain passes... DOH!

I'd like to know the reason behind these changes - I anticipate they will change the strategies somewhat (at least mine) at some point of the war.

Another thing worth of note was that the new units seem a bit too small (at least on my 15" monitor) - was the reason for this to better show the underlying terrain, or what?

Anyway, good work! I'm waiting for my chance to play it out...


[This message has been edited by juheja (edited October 10, 2000).]

Originally posted by juheja:

1) Some rail lines seem to have been removed entirely (eg. Constanta-Odessa, Riga-Tallinn, the one going through Uman, and one going over Dnepr West of Dnepropetrovsk. I think there were others, but they didn't catch the eye so badly.) In addition to this, some rail lines have been moved a little.

2) Some mountains have been added; most notably on the Russian side of Russo-Rumanian border, and one next to Sevastopol. The ones on the border, coupled with the removal of Constanta-Odessa railroad, seem to make this area almost a non-front; in the beginning for the Germans, and later in the war for the Soviets. No easy way to get supply except through a rail going through the long mountain passes... DOH!

I'd like to know the reason behind these changes - I anticipate they will change the strategies somewhat (at least mine) at some point of the war.

Some people went to a lot of effort to improve the accuracy of the map (RickyB mainly). That's why it was done. If the strategy changes because of a more accurate map, then those changes are good, in that they are probably more historical.


[This message has been edited by Ed Cogburn (edited October 10, 2000).]

Originally posted by juheja:
I just downloaded the 2.1 version. I haven't been able to play it yet, but noticed some changes:

1) Some rail lines seem to have been removed entirely (eg. Constanta-Odessa, Riga-Tallinn, the one going through Uman, and one going over Dnepr West of Dnepropetrovsk. I think there were others, but they didn't catch the eye so badly.) In addition to this, some rail lines have been moved a little.

2) Some mountains have been added; most notably on the Russian side of Russo-Rumanian border, and one next to Sevastopol. The ones on the border, coupled with the removal of Constanta-Odessa railroad, seem to make this area almost a non-front; in the beginning for the Germans, and later in the war for the Soviets. No easy way to get supply except through a rail going through the long mountain passes... DOH!

I'd like to know the reason behind these changes - I anticipate they will change the strategies somewhat (at least mine) at some point of the war.

Bill Velovich was the map master and made a number of excellent changes to the map. Regarding the rail lines, there were many more rail lines present in the Soviet Union than are shown in this or just about any other game, but many were only of very low capacity without major work. The map rails are usually based on those that were critical for the movement of supplies. Bill used 4 sources for his rail changes, and they seem to force the strategy more along historical lines of thrust. The Axis thrust through Bessarabia toward Odessa and the southern Ukraine was limited and fairly slow, but can be done during the high Axis blitzkrieg supply levels. Uman, by the way, does not appear to have been near any kind of significant rail network, except possibly some small feeder line.

I did move the Soviet lines westward around Lvov as it was inside of a salient, not sitting on the dividing line. The Soviets in southern Poland and Northen Bukovina were in control of part of the Carpathian mountains.

Also, a small change was made around the Bialystok salient in central Poland to give the line more of a salient appearance, rather than the original basically straight line it followed.

These salient will make the cutting off and destruction of the Soviet frontline forces happen a little more historically, if historical operational planning is used. I have discovered that using my old WIR plans will cause much higher tank losses (over 700 tanks) for the Axis, but changing my attack plans, I have been able to take out 10,000 squads and over 3000 tanks while only losing about 340 tanks myself on turn 1.

Anyway, play with it and see how it works out.

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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

Originally posted by RickyB:

I did move the Soviet lines westward around Lvov as it was inside of a salient, not sitting on the dividing line. The Soviets in southern Poland and Northen Bukovina were in control of part of the Carpathian mountains.

Also, a small change was made around the Bialystok salient in central Poland to give the line more of a salient appearance, rather than the original basically straight line it followed.

These salient will make the cutting off and destruction of the Soviet frontline forces happen a little more historically, if historical operational planning is used. I have discovered that using my old WIR plans will cause much higher tank losses (over 700 tanks) for the Axis, but changing my attack plans, I have been able to take out 10,000 squads and over 3000 tanks while only losing about 340 tanks myself on turn 1.

Anyway, play with it and see how it works out.

I have to take this back for now. An older version of the OBWIR file (the version in the last release, I think) was accidently used in the update, without any of the changes we have been making, as stated above. The update does not overwrite newer files, so I did not find this out until tonight. Matrix has been given the latest files so that hopefully they can be made available to everyone.


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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

Originally posted by RickyB:
The Axis thrust through Bessarabia toward Odessa and the southern Ukraine was limited and fairly slow, but can be done during the high Axis blitzkrieg supply levels.

Good point... but still, when the Soviets come back, they will have to go through Lvov to get to Bucharest... You're telling me they historically did just that???

Anyway, play with it and see how it works out.

I most certainly will! If only I had the time...

[This message has been edited by juheja (edited October 11, 2000).]

Originally posted by juheja:
Good point... but still, when the Soviets come back, they will have to go through Lvov to get to Bucharest... You're telling me they historically did just that???

I believe, without having any of my references handy (so I hope my memory serves me halfway right here), that after the Soviets broke out from their bridgeheads around Kiev and all, they were stopped by supply problems and Axis resistance before they were able to penetrate (very far anyway) into Rumania. After a significant pause to build up supply, they were then able to launch a fresh attack that caused Rumania to switch sides. Thus a pause of some kind is probably correct for the Soviets, although it may not be entirely historical the way this makes it play out, requiring Lvov to be captured.

It is something that will require some play to see how it all comes together. Thanks for bringing the issue up.



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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi