Matrix Games Forums

I know of the old "Do special supply and they shatter easier" problem. But playing on a new game on my second turn as the Germans, it seems to me that if I do special supply on the Panzer Korps, they will only move 1 hex in the action phase!?!

Originally posted by sw30:
I know of the old "Do special supply and they shatter easier" problem. But playing on a new game on my second turn as the Germans, it seems to me that if I do special supply on the Panzer Korps, they will only move 1 hex in the action phase!?!

When you did special supply, which costs significantly more than before, did you run the ops points left down to 0, or close to it? Plotted movement requires ops points, and as they get really low, the plots can or do fail. Check it out. If you are still fairly high in ops points and it is still happening, please let us know, but my guess is that your ops points are just too low.


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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

Good call. My ops points were down to ~15 before execution and I was moving both Panzer korps.

Jeff

Been trying to start a PBEM game, I start as Germans and my air turns to 80%+ damage after first turn. Plus my supply does not keep up with Blitzkrieg, even after two turns my rail supply does not move up. Any news on this????????????

One other note on PBEM, I changed my factories on the first turn which then said for a 4 week delay. IM now on turn 3 with no supply and my factories still say 4 weeks. Bummed out.

Originally posted by jkokjohn:
One other note on PBEM, I changed my factories on the first turn which then said for a 4 week delay. IM now on turn 3 with no supply and my factories still say 4 weeks. Bummed out.

There are some earlier threads on this one back at the last release. The Secure PBEM mode has been totally broken in both Matrix releases. It does not do any phases except the player orders phase and the combat phase - no reinforcements, replacements, supply, rail conversion, ops points distribution, etc. It is completely unusable.


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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

Many of the old bugs remain: Units are still being "respawned" to fill the gap after a unit has been forced to retreat, cut-off units are still recieving combat reinforcements, surrounded units are still shattering.

But maybe you're already aware of this?

Originally posted by Yogi Yohan:
Many of the old bugs remain: Units are still being "respawned" to fill the gap after a unit has been forced to retreat, cut-off units are still recieving combat reinforcements, surrounded units are still shattering.

But maybe you're already aware of this?

What version are you playing? Can you give me a save file that demonstrates the first bug you mention?

As for the 2nd bug I can't get this to happen (with the latest beta). Can you make a save file that demonstrates this?

As for the 3rd bug we knew about this and its been fixed in a recent beta it seems. A unit retreating from a 0 supply square to another 0 supply square surrenders instead of shattering (the squares must have been at 0 supply at the beginning of the turn though).

I was wondering what progress was being made on correcting the effect of 0 supply "bug". I have had to restart 2 games because once a Pz Korp moves to a situation where it is out of supply (even if I airlift supplies to it that week) then it is effectively combat ineffective for more than 3 weeks. And a unit which is left in 0 supply for 2 weeks, again even with airlifts is effectively destroyed.

In the current game, the panzer Divisions in the 3&4th Pz Armies have strength points near 1000. These units have never been out of supply. The 1&2 Pz Armies have strengths in the 400 range...each one of these Korp have began at least one week out of supply. But none of them did not then recieve airlifts to bring their supply up to at least 1. And none of them were ever attacked while out of supply.

I believe this is the most serious failure in the game. The strength loss is unbelieveable. It would be better to apply it at the end of the turn so that a unit which is airsupplied doesn't evaporate as is the case now. To me, at least, this is a show stopper It is annoying because I like a lot (95%+) of the changes that have been done. Especially the reduction in the effectiveness of interdiction air attacks which were completely ridiculus in the older versions of the game.

A final point: is it possible to attack 7 times in a turn? When playing the russians the germans attacked Kiev 7 times in a turn (the last attack drove out my defenders) which doesn't make sense since there is only 5 attack impulses that I know of.

Originally posted by Paul McNeely:

I believe this is the most serious failure in the game. The strength loss is unbelieveable. It would be better to apply it at the end of the turn so that a unit which is airsupplied doesn't evaporate as is the case now. To me, at least, this is a show stopper It is annoying because I like a lot (95%+) of the changes that have been done. Especially the reduction in the effectiveness of interdiction air attacks which were completely ridiculus in the older versions of the game.

The equipment losses of a unit in 0 supply have been reduced, so its losses are not as drastic. However, there is also a plan to prevent airlift capability from raising a 0 supply level square, it will only raise the readiness of the unit, not the supply level of the square. So from your perspective, a little good and a little bad.

A final point: is it possible to attack 7 times in a turn? When playing the russians the germans attacked Kiev 7 times in a turn (the last attack drove out my defenders) which doesn't make sense since there is only 5 attack impulses that I know of.

Never heard of anything like that. Do you have a save game which demonstrates these extra attacks?


[This message has been edited by Ed Cogburn (edited October 29, 2000).]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

Never heard of anything like that. Do you have a save game which demonstrates these extra attacks?

Ed,

Check page 18 of the manual, Attack Continuation, if this attack starts on the 5th pulse it will continue until the defender retreats. I have seen it many times but maybe it is a bug.

Svar

Try this one at the start of the -41 campaign:

Put the Finnish Ju-88A's to airfield attack, and bomb the Leningrad Front. Look at the Finnish HQ again: All Fokkers are used, but the Mixed Fighters are not. Now put the Mixed Fighters to Airfield Attack, and bomb Leningrad Front again. And again... and again... and again... and... well, you get the idea.

Ed,

Check page 18 of the manual, Attack Continuation, if this attack starts on the 5th pulse it will continue until the defender retreats. I have seen it many times but maybe it is a bug.

Svar[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily until it retreats... It seem to happen most when attackihng well fortified cities, and acheiving very good odds, but the defender hangs on. It can go on pretty long, but it does not always favor the attacker I've had attacks broken off due to lack of troops/OP points(?) when the defenders hang on really good.

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:
What version are you playing? Can you give me a save file that demonstrates the first bug you mention?.

I'm playing the 2.1+ version. I'll see if i can get a saved game file where this happens.

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:
As for the 2nd bug I can't get this to happen (with the latest beta). Can you make a save file that demonstrates this?

OK, will try.

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:
As for the 3rd bug we knew about this and its been fixed in a recent beta it seems. A unit retreating from a 0 supply square to another 0 supply square surrenders instead of shattering (the squares must have been at 0 supply at the beginning of the turn though).

Originally posted by Svar:
Ed,

Check page 18 of the manual, Attack Continuation, if this attack starts on the 5th pulse it will continue until the defender retreats. I have seen it many times but maybe it is a bug.

Svar

Doh!!! You're right, I forgot about that. Its not a bug. I did know about continuation, really. I swear, I did. Really.

Originally posted by juheja:
Try this one at the start of the -41 campaign:

Put the Finnish Ju-88A's to airfield attack, and bomb the Leningrad Front. Look at the Finnish HQ again: All Fokkers are used, but the Mixed Fighters are not. Now put the Mixed Fighters to Airfield Attack, and bomb Leningrad Front again. And again... and again... and again... and... well, you get the idea.

Confirmed, and reported. Although in the latest beta, the Finns don't have Fokkers, just Mixed Fighters, but I saw this bug elsewhere.


[This message has been edited by Ed Cogburn (edited October 29, 2000).]

As far as losses due to 0 supply goes, I don't see why there should be any under normal circumstances. If all that happens is the Pz Korp has outrun its supply lines, something which was a common occurance, for a week there is no reason it should loose anything. This is especially true if there is airlifts to bring in supplies.

Losses should only occur if a unit is isolated at the end of a turn, and no airlift has occured. But still most units would have enough supplies for a week especially if no combat occurs. Historically many german units lasted long periods of time with only air resupply.

The level of evaporation that I have observed is just, well, unbelievable. The Pz Korp were not attacked, did not attack themselves, just moved outside of supply range and stopped and for that they lost half their tanks, troops and guns. Even if that was reduced to 10% that would silly.

As far as raising the supply level, I think that is unrealistic. The maximium supplies I have ever airlifted was 67 tons. And a typical German division required 50-100 tons per week for normal combat operations so 2 Pz div, 1 motorised, and 1 inf plus 2 arty, 1 Flack and a JPz Battalion are not going to be getting more than minimal supplies via that air lift. I can't imagine them conducting full offesive actions based on that supply level. But likewise I can't see them abandoning their equipement wholesale either.

Originally posted by Paul McNeely:
As far as losses due to 0 supply goes, I don't see why there should be any under normal circumstances. If all that happens is the Pz Korp has outrun its supply lines, something which was a common occurance, for a week there is no reason it should loose anything. This is especially true if there is airlifts to bring in supplies.

Well, there was an ongoing discussion about this. It looks like Arnaud is going to just change the amount of equipment losses from 50% to something smaller. We had a more complex solution to the problem that would base losses on what, if anything, the unit did while it was out of supply, but that was too complex to implement.

Losses should only occur if a unit is isolated at the end of a turn, and no airlift has occured. But still most units would have enough supplies for a week especially if no combat occurs. Historically many german units lasted long periods of time with only air resupply.

According to some data one of the beta testers discovered, a typical German division carried only 3-4 days of supply. However, there is a huge difference between an infantry corps and a panzer corps. Air supply might be able to sustain an unmotorized corps for a week or two at minimal supply level, but air supply is simply not capable of suppling a motorized corps all the fuel it needs for daily combat operations, including long distance movement.

The level of evaporation that I have observed is just, well, unbelievable. The Pz Korp were not attacked, did not attack themselves, just moved outside of supply range and stopped and for that they lost half their tanks, troops and guns. Even if that was reduced to 10% that would silly.

We made a similar debate about the diferences between a unit that doesn't move, attack, or get attacked, versus one that plots 5 squares of movement and engages in combat. But this was too complex. A more sophisticated supply rule system will have to wait for the full WiR remake Matrix is allegedly considering. The 50% equipment losses has been reduced, so things aren't as bad as they were.

I just started and must again restart a game due to the effect of moving a Pz Korp out of supply.

I am not sure why it is difficult to code in the loss only if the unit moves or retreats. Under any other circumstance it is not going to loose significant equipment. The current readiness loss simulates the reduced supply effect. As well the equipment loss penelty (if there is one) for a stationary unit should be applied at the end of the turn if the unit is still out of supply and no airlift had occured. Seems to me a few logical flags would cover the implementation easily enough but there may be problems with that for memory reasons.

Historically the germans outran their supply lines often during their advances, the units just lagered up and waited for the fresh supplies which would eventually make it. In other cases, such as in Velki Luki, the air supply was sufficient to allow the garrison to hold out till relieved.

Originally posted by juheja:
Try this one at the start of the -41 campaign:

Put the Finnish Ju-88A's to airfield attack, and bomb the Leningrad Front. Look at the Finnish HQ again: All Fokkers are used, but the Mixed Fighters are not. Now put the Mixed Fighters to Airfield Attack, and bomb Leningrad Front again. And again... and again... and again... and... well, you get the idea.

This works also with Me110 Fighter-bombers, but with these, game didn't show combat report in their secondary attacks.
This seems to be Fighter-Bomber related bug or should I say "feature".
Another interesting thing is the fact, that you can continue playing beyond July -45. I once played until March -46, but then I turn the computer off. In that phase Axis have only Finnish troops left (in good condition) and Italian Front-HQ without troops, but Rommel was still in their ranks. Soviets couldn't destroy it, but I couldn't move it either.