Matrix Games Forums

A lil destroyer that hasn't grown up yet or a gun boat or steroids? You decide.

As a Japanese noob I'm wondering what use this class of destoyer is. It has short legs, no depth charges and little AA ability (12), how is this ship not a gun boat?[&:] More to the point, what good is it?

Not much good as is, but it does get a little bit of a refit in 3/42. Then it can be used as a convoy escort.

it will get DCs later - you have never enough escort vessels -especially with aggressive allied sub command

The Minekazes were the oldest destroyers in fleet service by 12/41, having been commisioned from 1920-22.

So stick them away in some port until they upgrade? Im considering using them in my DEI campaign to chase down the ships trying to run away.

You can do that; just remember that they don't have Long Lances...

Good point. I have another one.

Why are the infamous Tomozuru class torpedo boats classed as DDs?

Good question... They're certainly not big enough...

Good speed 30+ 3×4,7" and a coupl of longlances are still only a beefed up, but handicapped (no DCs) PG for me. How is it in CHS?

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Good speed 30+ 3×4,7" and a coupl of longlances are still only a beefed up, but handicapped (no DCs) PG for me. How is it in CHS?

About the same as the Minekaze then. With my very spotty knowledge of navy history and tactics I had forgotten that one of the main reasons destroyers were designed was to deliver torps in combat situations that were not suitable for motor patrol boats, i.e. naval engagements in far away places.

I believe the reason both of these were classed as DDs was for that very reason. Might be good to use in small surface combat fleets.

They are as old and as small as flush-deckers, use them as escorts against PT boats, they are also very handy (and expendable) in Fast Transport mission.

Even if they can't DC a sub, they can keep it from surfacing and gunning your ships...

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Good speed 30+ 3×4,7" and a coupl of longlances are still only a beefed up, but handicapped (no DCs) PG for me. How is it in CHS?

About the same as the Minekaze then. With my very spotty knowledge of navy history and tactics I had forgotten that one of the main reasons destroyers were designed was to deliver torps in combat situations that were not suitable for motor patrol boats, i.e. naval engagements in far away places.

I believe the reason both of these were classed as DDs was for that very reason. Might be good to use in small surface combat fleets.

Plus, the class "Torpedo Boat" doesn't exist in WitP...

Convoy escort. As Japan there is areal need for escorts later in the war. Just my 2 cents worth.[:D]

You are asking (first) about very old (WWI era design) destroyers and (later) about a second class destroyer designed in the 1930s which had to have armament reduced for stability reasons - after a dreadful storm made it plain. Both classes were eventually made into something very similar to a DE and, in that form, become useful. The other use of the old DDs was to convert them to APDs, and you have some of those in the game.

Historically, "torpedo boats" were big - not "motor torpedo boats" in the WWII sense - and they remained popular in the small seas of Europe - and also in Thailand! where range was not a big problem. Originally "destroyers" were called "torpedoboat destroyers" - meaning they were supposed to "destroy" those pesky "torpedo boats!" Japan pioneered the very big "cruiser destroyer" for ocean use - but the USN also built remarkably similar big destroyers in the pre war period - and these came to dominate our thinking - so we have forgotten that originally the destroyer was an "anti-torpedoboat" ship! Changing the name - for simplicity - also means we have generally forgotten they are properly called "torpedoboat destroyers" (if the original name is the proper one).

Gun boats are entirely different.  They are generally not intended for use on the open sea - and lack the keel depth or range to do so safely - and they only have one or two guns.  There is little room to make them into effective escorts either. Gun boats are supposed to outclass the unarmed (or tiny) vessels they face - they are supposed to hide from 'real' warships - even destroyers.  And for that reason they are always slow - just fast enough to catch a merchant or small craft.  But there are some gigantic gunboats - and some are ocean going as well - with six inch guns no less!  There also are armored gunboats.  The biggest of all are in Thailand - with 8 inch guns - and one of these is in RHS (the other was sunk in 1940 in a brief war with France - well both were sunk but the one we have appears in Japan after the repairs are completed  - almost at the start of our campaign game). 

I use them for fast transport primarily until early February 1942. I then send them home to Japan where they repair (2 months of fast transport missions takes its toll on them) and refit. By about mid-march they are escorting transports.

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

They are as old and as small as flush-deckers, use them as escorts against PT boats, they are also very handy (and expendable) in Fast Transport mission.

IR, they were commonly used as fast transports.

Yup after their refit they are pretty handy ships as convoy escort/ASW TF ships at 147 AA and 4 ASW rating IIRC

el cid, first off thank you to you and the others for answering my questions. Your statement in particular generated a question and a thought.

First, if destroyers were intended as anti-torpedo boat weapons then why did some of them carry so many torpedos themselves? For, surely a high rate of fire deck gun would be far more effective against lightly armored fast moving targets. I do seem to recall hearing about how destroyers were used in that capacity, but the placement of so many torpedo tubes on destroyers would suggest that they had another purpose.

As for gun boats, I have noticed that with several exceptions, navies around the world tended to stick guns on just about anything that was big enough and call them a gun boat. I think this was more common among smaller countries, but even the USN teneded to convert yachts, or whatever was handy at the time into a PG. I wouldn't seriously consider the Minekaze just a gun boat, but certainly did appear to be a ship without a function at the start of the war with the US.

Destroyers were indeed intended as anti-torpedo boat weapons, but they ended up supplanting them in their role. Think of them as skirmishers in the armies of the ancient world, their job to attrit the enemy main force and kill off their opposite numbers on the other side.