Matrix Games Forums

I've played several 1941 pbem campaigns and the extreme use of Axis panzer korps without any panzer/motor divisions is unrealistic!

I suggest that a panzer korps without a single pz division should be unable to plot more than 2 hexes.

I've experienced having panzer korpses with 6-7 inf divisions running wild behind my lines.....
I know that this will deplete readiness and in the end ruin the divisions but nevertheless , it is a way for the Axis player to exploit breakthrough opportunities in ways that isn't realistic.


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John

Originally posted by PzB:
I've played several 1941 pbem campaigns and the extreme use of Axis panzer korps without any panzer/motor divisions is unrealistic!

Yes, it is. We know about this problem but so far the programmer hasn't decided to tackle this issue. It's not easy to solve. What about a unit with one independent tank battalion with little or no tanks left with the remaining forces being non-motorized? How do you tell when its cheating? Same goes for a nearly empty tank division with the rest of the corps being non-motorized. Hell, for that matter, the corps could have totally depleted units in it, no infantry squads, no tanks, no artillery, no anti-tank guns, and no flak, and you can *STILL* use it to capture enemy cities!

I'll bring this issue up again, but a popular response is that anyone using this exploit is a loser, and you should't be playing with them in the first place.

In the next version units that are out of supply will be able to plot only 1 square per turn, so the exploit becomes less damaging. If you can cut their supply line quickly, you'll be able to catch and destroy them with just infantry corps.

True : ) I assume that players should agree to certain rules before starting to play.

I got a few pz korps with only inf divisions myself, but that is because the pz div's have been withdrawn to HQ and I had already created all the existing inf korps.

Another thing...cut of units that is supplied by air now regains a 1-4 supply level and allowed to plot a full 5 hexes!?
Is this intentionally or will it be removed as well?

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John

Originally posted by PzB:
Another thing...cut of units that is supplied by air now regains a 1-4 supply level and allowed to plot a full 5 hexes!?
Is this intentionally or will it be removed as well?

Nope, this will really kill the exploitation that has been going on. Air supply will raise the readiness of the units in the corps, but *not* the supply level of the hex.
The German player can no longer romp about in the backfield moving 5 hexes per turn from air dropped supply.

Why not add a small program change that prevents players from adding infantry divisions to a panzer korps?

Originally posted by VictorH:
Why not add a small program change that prevents players from adding infantry divisions to a panzer korps?

Because mixing them is historical. Look at the Campaign '44 scenario for example. In many places, the Germans have mixed infantry and panzer units in the same Korps. In several places there are "Panzer Korps" with only infantry. It can also be used as a little bit of deception directed at your opponent. So just refusing to put infantry into Panzer Korps is not enough. The check, if we were to have it, would need to be a little more sophisticated.

Fortunately, now that the readiness penalty is really being enforced, non-mobile units will suffer more in mobile formations when they plot more than 2 squares of movement.

AN IN HOUSE RULE I HAVE USED IN THE PAST IS ALL PANZER KORPS MUST CONTAIN 2 PANZER DIVS(OR ELITE SS MOBILE IN THE EARLY SCENARIOS).
ALTHOUGH IT MAY NOT BE PERFECTLY HISTORICAL IT SEEMS TO PLAY WELL. IF PANZER DIVS ARE WITHDRAWN BELOW THE 2 LIMIT, THE KORPS MUST CHANGE TO INF. TYPE.

radical: No, that wouldn't work so well, because anytime you wanted to make a one panzer division corp, along with a few independent units, it would go infantry. Probably the best thing would be a percentage thing, if the corp exceeds 1/2 or 2/3 infantry units, then the corp is no longer panzer (artillery/flak/AT wouldn't count towards the total).

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:
Because mixing them is historical. Look at the Campaign '44 scenario for example. In many places, the Germans have mixed infantry and panzer units in the same Korps. In several places there are "Panzer Korps" with only infantry. It can also be used as a little bit of deception directed at your opponent. So just refusing to put infantry into Panzer Korps is not enough. The check, if we were to have it, would need to be a little more sophisticated.

Fortunately, now that the readiness penalty is really being enforced, non-mobile units will suffer more in mobile formations when they plot more than 2 squares of movement.

Excellent solution! Simplicity is what I was after and how much simpler can enforcing the rules be.