Matrix Games Forums

Better late then never I suppose.

I have tried regulary to get a fighter unit to execute one of these attacks and they don't. The mission can be assigned but when the attack is made nothing happens.

What is the point in the fighters having Load values if they can't use them?

My practice is to edit the plane types to fighter-bomber.



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Paul
Cottonbalers By God! Damn Fine Soldiers!

Originally posted by PVanDoren:
Better late then never I suppose.

I have tried regulary to get a fighter unit to execute one of these attacks and they don't. The mission can be assigned but when the attack is made nothing happens.

What is the point in the fighters having Load values if they can't use them?

My practice is to edit the plane types to fighter-bomber.

We had a discussion about this months ago in the playtesting group, and all thought it should be allowed, as the manual said it was. It has been a long time, but I think what is going on is that fighters may contribute to these attacks if there are bombers along, but will not go by themselves. Sorry I don't remember this one more clearly.


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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

Originally posted by RickyB:
[/B]We had a discussion about this months ago in the playtesting group, and all thought it should be allowed, as the manual said it was. It has been a long time, but I think what is going on is that fighters may contribute to these attacks if there are bombers along, but will not go by themselves. Sorry I don't remember this one more clearly.

I have been gaming since the 60's and have encountered a great variety of features that were compromises accomodating an incompatability between the technology, realism, entertainment, and/or playability. Granted you don't remember the reason. I can't think of a reason to prohibit fighters from doing what fighter bombers can do.

I will make alternates with all fighters set to fighter bomber for games with folks who are open to realism.

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Paul
Cottonbalers By God! Damn Fine Soldiers!

yes, pure fighters can execute these missions only when escorting bombers. This is a design choice.

Their load and cannon (anti-tank) values are not useless. They use them when escorting (general strafing), and also when supporting combat in the ground combat phase. But not as effectively as bombers: Fighters are assumed to spend most of their time conducting sweeps and escorting, which is their true role. They also take much lower losses from flak than bombers (one-fourth) for the same reason.

Arnaud
(WIR 3.0 developer)

Originally posted by RickyB:

Originally posted by PVanDoren:
Better late then never I suppose.

I have tried regulary to get a fighter unit to execute one of these attacks and they don't. The mission can be assigned but when the attack is made nothing happens.

What is the point in the fighters having Load values if they can't use them?

My practice is to edit the plane types to fighter-bomber.

We had a discussion about this months ago in the playtesting group, and all thought it should be allowed, as the manual said it was. It has been a long time, but I think what is going on is that fighters may contribute to these attacks if there are bombers along, but will not go by themselves. Sorry I don't remember this one more clearly.

Originally posted by Arnaud:
yes, pure fighters can execute these missions only when escorting bombers. This is a design choice.

Their load and cannon (anti-tank) values are not useless. They use them when escorting (general strafing), and also when supporting combat in the ground combat phase. But not as effectively as bombers: Fighters are assumed to spend most of their time conducting sweeps and escorting, which is their true role. They also take much lower losses from flak than bombers (one-fourth) for the same reason.

Arnaud
(WIR 3.0 developer)

A design choice? But what was the basis? Playability? I appreciate you posting what mechnically is going on. Nevertheless there is no explaination of the compromise that had to be made.

I think we have only to remember the 1944-45 domination of the Allied fighters over the western front and the German Jan 1, 1945 raid
to know that fighter groups were assigned interdiction and air field attack missions even when the bombers where grounded or unable to survive the enemy defenses. I have repeatedly witnessed presentations by P-51 and P-47 WWI vets where their assignments were independent of the bombers.

So what is the rational?


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Paul
Cottonbalers By God! Damn Fine Soldiers!

Originally posted by PVanDoren:
So what is the rational?

I agree late war fighters could carry out ground attacks, but early war fighters couldn't because the planes weren't designed to carry bombs and such, or extra ammo for that matter.

I think you'll have to ask Gary Grigsby that question. He does the same thing with fighters in PacWar too.

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

I agree late war fighters could carry out ground attacks, but early war fighters couldn't because the planes weren't designed to carry bombs and such, or extra ammo for that matter.

Although there is a great deal of information close at hand which would refute your observation I will use just these few.

The ME 109 E1, in service late August 1939, armament was 4xMG17 plus 4x 50Kg or one 250kg bomb. (The illustrated Directory of Fighting Aircraft of WWII, Bill Gunston)

Fighter bomber and recon versions of the ME109 E were produced in 1940 (The Vital Guide to Fighting Aircraft of WWII, Karen Leverington)

From "The Luftwaffe's Way of War: German Air Force Doctrine 1911-1945", James S. Corum & Richard Muller

The authors introduction to "Guidelines for the Operations of Flying Units in the Direct Support of the ARmy", 1 August, 1939, General der Flieger Hans Jeshonnek
"the 1939 instructions that follow indicate the Luftwaffe, on the basis of it's doctrine and its force structure, was more suited to interdiction tasks than to close air support at the front line."

Tactical Instructions for the Employment of CLose Combat Formations, 8 May 1941, LTG Otto Hoffman Von Waldau, Lufttwaffe Operations Staff.

Fighter and twin Engine Fighter Units.
32. Missions for the support of ground operations take place in the form of:
a. "Free hunt."
b. Escort.
c. low level attacks

The basic point is that the game design forces on the player a doctrine decision that is neither historical nor logical. If the same thinking was applied to the armored units no Panzer Corps would be allowed to attack a city or to perform a static defense.

If an air craft has a load value then the player ought be allowed to use gruppen or air divisions equiped with such planes independently for interdiction or air field attack. (It's bad enough that the game imposes on the Germans the Soviet method of using air forces)

[This message has been edited by PVanDoren (edited March 04, 2001).]