Matrix Games Forums

As the time for release grows closer who wants to lift a stein in salute to our great and wonderous leader Shannon V. OKeets [&o] and to the greatest wargame series ever... World in Flames in all its incarnations.

Matrix get us some merchandise. I will buy a stein and drink one in salute to this wonderful game. Anyone else?

You BET!

This is a classic example of proper design management. Some of us should be paying tuition!!!!

After looking at the 'meltdown' being incited in the EIA forum, I am happy to see this working.

David Heath said

I will also say you are hardly ever likely to see Matrix commit to another board game to computer design again.

I certainly hope this is not the case.

Hmmm ... an MWiF beer stein with Steve's signature embossed across the bottom ... where do I send the check? [:D]

"As time for relase grows closer".....due to unquestioned Shannon V. OKeets' valiance....instead of beer I would like to be able to buy the finally released version of CWif already scheduled for tihs spring.......
However I am ready to buy this game as Christmas present............(maybe).

ORIGINAL: werwolf

"As time for relase grows closer".....due to unquestioned Shannon V. OKeets' valiance....instead of beer I would like to be able to buy the finally released version of CWif already scheduled for tihs spring.......
However I am ready to buy this game as Christmas present............(maybe).

I know not of what you speak.

The last version of CWIF I have seen was dated Feb 2005, which included the source code I started with. Nothing has been done to CWIF, per se, since then. One of my first decisions, made in July 2005, was to rename the project MWIF, and that was expressly done to separate it from the beta version of CWIF that had been floating around.

All of my work has been on MWIF.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: werwolf

"As time for relase grows closer".....due to unquestioned Shannon V. OKeets' valiance....instead of beer I would like to be able to buy the finally released version of CWif already scheduled for tihs spring.......
However I am ready to buy this game as Christmas present............(maybe).

I know not of what you speak.

The last version of CWIF I have seen was dated Feb 2005, which included the source code I started with. Nothing has been done to CWIF, per se, since then. One of my first decisions, made in July 2005, was to rename the project MWIF, and that was expressly done to separate it from the beta version of CWIF that had been floating around.

All of my work has been on MWIF.

Nothing change anything....at this point for me will be enough a Beta version, at least, I could play with a game resembling WiF. I was waiting for this game for ten years (maybe more.....).
CWiF was scheduled for this spring....now spring is over and surprisingly CWiF disapperead to develop MWiF. Probably in few months a GWiF, MWiF, MGWiF or a something else will appear. Then the game relase will be again "for this spring...for this summer".....This strength my opinion, and not only mine, that all of you (Matrix Games included) are pulling our legs.

ORIGINAL: werwolf

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: werwolf

"As time for relase grows closer".....due to unquestioned Shannon V. OKeets' valiance....instead of beer I would like to be able to buy the finally released version of CWif already scheduled for tihs spring.......
However I am ready to buy this game as Christmas present............(maybe).

I know not of what you speak.

The last version of CWIF I have seen was dated Feb 2005, which included the source code I started with. Nothing has been done to CWIF, per se, since then. One of my first decisions, made in July 2005, was to rename the project MWIF, and that was expressly done to separate it from the beta version of CWIF that had been floating around.

All of my work has been on MWIF.

Nothing change anything....at this point for me will be enough a Beta version, at least, I could play with a game resembling WiF. I was waiting for this game for ten years (maybe more.....).
CWiF was scheduled for this spring....now spring is over and surprisingly CWiF disapperead to develop MWiF. Probably in few months a GWiF, MWiF, MGWiF or a something else will appear. Then the game relase will be again "for this spring...for this summer".....This strength my opinion, and not only mine, that all of you (Matrix Games included) are pulling our legs.

CWiF ceased to officially exist ages ago. The project has been named MWiF since then. Originally Matrix hoped to get MWiF released by about now but the real world intervened. That's the way the cookie crumbles. At least there has been clear and consistent progress.

You obviously haven't read much of the forum or you would realize that this project is a lesson in involving the potential user-base and keeping them informed. Perhaps, with a grand total of 7 posts, it would have been more sensible to inform yourself of the actual situation before accusing people of "pulling our legs".

Cheers, Neilster

ORIGINAL: Neilster

ORIGINAL: werwolf

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets




I know not of what you speak.

The last version of CWIF I have seen was dated Feb 2005, which included the source code I started with. Nothing has been done to CWIF, per se, since then. One of my first decisions, made in July 2005, was to rename the project MWIF, and that was expressly done to separate it from the beta version of CWIF that had been floating around.

All of my work has been on MWIF.

Nothing change anything....at this point for me will be enough a Beta version, at least, I could play with a game resembling WiF. I was waiting for this game for ten years (maybe more.....).
CWiF was scheduled for this spring....now spring is over and surprisingly CWiF disapperead to develop MWiF. Probably in few months a GWiF, MWiF, MGWiF or a something else will appear. Then the game relase will be again "for this spring...for this summer".....This strength my opinion, and not only mine, that all of you (Matrix Games included) are pulling our legs.

CWiF ceased to officially exist ages ago. The project has been named MWiF since then. Originally Matrix hoped to get MWiF released by about now but the real world intervened. That's the way the cookie crumbles. At least there has been clear and consistent progress.

You obviously haven't read much of the forum or you would realize that this project is a lesson in involving the potential user-base and keeping them informed. Perhaps, with a grand total of 7 posts, it would have been more sensible to inform yourself of the actual situation before accusing people of "pulling our legs".

Cheers, Neilster

Even I posted only 7 posts, this does not signify that I am not constantly reading your progress......
All of you that are spending a lot of time and efforts to develop MWiF, do not answer to the main question: When finally we poor peopole will be able to play a definitive version of WiF for computer?
I am not honestly able to see the "consistent progress" and, after ten years waiting I am not interested in: "involving the potential user-base and keeping them informed". The only consistent progress would be the real release of the game (if willing to do so)
This is the question !! The rest are only words.......

ORIGINAL: werwolf

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: werwolf

"As time for relase grows closer".....due to unquestioned Shannon V. OKeets' valiance....instead of beer I would like to be able to buy the finally released version of CWif already scheduled for tihs spring.......
However I am ready to buy this game as Christmas present............(maybe).

I know not of what you speak.

The last version of CWIF I have seen was dated Feb 2005, which included the source code I started with. Nothing has been done to CWIF, per se, since then. One of my first decisions, made in July 2005, was to rename the project MWIF, and that was expressly done to separate it from the beta version of CWIF that had been floating around.

All of my work has been on MWIF.

Nothing change anything....at this point for me will be enough a Beta version, at least, I could play with a game resembling WiF. I was waiting for this game for ten years (maybe more.....).
CWiF was scheduled for this spring....now spring is over and surprisingly CWiF disapperead to develop MWiF. Probably in few months a GWiF, MWiF, MGWiF or a something else will appear. Then the game relase will be again "for this spring...for this summer".....This strength my opinion, and not only mine, that all of you (Matrix Games included) are pulling our legs.

Pardon me for saying so, but you don't have a clue about what you're talking about.

CWIF is a dead product and you will never be able to receive new free beta
versions to play around with. Chris Marinacci did a great job with CWIF, but WIFFE is
such a complex game with so much work to do (especially the graphics for the counters
and map) so no wonder he never managed to finish it alone.

Some time ago there was an agreement between ADG and Matrix Games to not let all
the great work of Chris go to waste and use his work as a basis for a new computer
based WIF. This is called MWIF and Steve the project leader for this project. MWIF is
NOT a free product, but will be a commercial product sold by Matrix Games.
So unless you were one of the chosen few who participate in the playtesting you will
only be able to play MWIF if you purchase it. Maybe you're angry you can't
find beta CWIF anymore updated with what it's inside MWIF, but you have to realize
it's very rare that beta versions of software is around on internet for anyone to
download. I have never seen this for commercial games, and MWIF is a commercial
product. So you just have to wait for the final MWIF before you will be able to play it.
Just like we have to with every other computer game being created.

If you had taken the time to look at the different threads in this forum you couldn't
avoid to notice all the wonderful work created by Steve and the others (redesigned
map, great graphics for counters, game engine rewritten, code for internet play,
AI etc.). It's really a lot of work who has been done to MWIF from the day Matrix
Games started with the project till today. So you offend many people by saying
Matrix Games and Steve are pulling our legs. It's not true and it gives an impression
you do NOT appreciate the tremendous work already done with MWIF.

You have to understand that if Matrix Games had NOT agreed with ADG to make MWIF
you would probably never had seen a finished CWIF with all the nice functionality that
exist already in MWIF.

Computer wargames is a niche product and you will never see hundreds of people
work on the software as you see with computer games who sell hundreds of thousands
of copies. We should be very very happy there exist companies like Matrix Games who
excel in making computer WARgames. There are not many of them around. Without
such companies the wargames hobby would die slowly. But because the possible profit
from each new computer wargame is not very high nobody can expect lots of people
working on each game to produce it in no time.

For MWIF we got Steve aboard as the head programmer and project leader. Some
others do a tremendous work too. Just read his monthly post in the When thread
to see the progress of MWIF and you will easily notice that with Steve we get MUCH
better feedback service (as a customer) than we are used to with new computer
software. If you look at all the screenshots he has posted (map, counters etc.) and
how much he listens to the veteran WIF players to make the best possible MWIF then
you would understand that we should all be very very grateful ADG made the deal
with Matrix Games and that Steve is the project manager for MWIF.

MWIF is on track for being released and maybe we will all have this great software in
our hands by Christmas. The progress is steady and there is no doubt that it will be
finished in the near future.

You seem to live in the times when CWIF was still being worked on and the progress
was not steady. But it's not fair to say that Chris did not do his job well, because he
did it on his FREE time and the work needed was simply too much for one man to make
in his free time. With Matrix Games we now have a company who is giving MWIF
priority and thus we see steady progress. Steve is a very dedicated and able
programmer whom I'm sure (with the help of the playtesters and all the rest of us) a
very fine product that WIF fans will enjoy for many years.

I can't understand why you would be so ignorant to accuse Matrix Games and all the
others to not do their job properly when there is so much evidence in the World in
Flames thread about the opposite. I was inclined to say you obviously must be blind,
but I won't say it. I guess lack of your vision is not the reason for your
ignorant post. [;)]

I propose you look through the different WIF threads and especially look at the nice
screenshots from the map, counters, dialogue boxes etc. After you have seen this
then I propose you rethink and post again your new view of what you think of MWIF.
I'm pretty sure you would come to a different conclusion.

All of you that are spending a lot of time and efforts to develop MWiF, do not answer to the main question: When finally we poor peopole will be able to play a definitive version of WiF for computer?

When it is finished.
Is it a good replay ?

Do you want to buy and play an unfinished game ?

If you do not see the "consistent progress", that means that you are not reading the forums. Or you are reading too fast ?
Just compare the screenshots of old CWiF and of MWiF as it is now (you can find lots of screenshots everywhere in a lot of thread) and you should see progress. Even a comparison of MWiF as it was in December, and as it is now 6 months later shows you the huge progress.

I don't know what "pulling our legs" exactly means (I'm French), but I suspect this has to do with people at Matrix and people developping the game cheating you in making you falsely believe that the game will be finished sometime.
Do you really think that people at Matrix (or other people posting here) have nothing more interesting to do than cheating you ????

ORIGINAL: werwolf
Even I posted only 7 posts, this does not signify that I am not constantly reading your progress......
All of you that are spending a lot of time and efforts to develop MWiF, do not answer to the main question: When finally we poor peopole will be able to play a definitive version of WiF for computer?
I am not honestly able to see the "consistent progress" and, after ten years waiting I am not interested in: "involving the potential user-base and keeping them informed". The only consistent progress would be the real release of the game (if willing to do so)
This is the question !! The rest are only words.......

Oh dear. [:(] Your other message was simply ignorant. Now you decide to be rude too.
I can't understand what you have against MWIF and the great work being done. You
are actually accusing Steve and Matrix Games to just trick us into believing they are
working on MWIF by posting some occasional screenshots etc. Why would they be
interested in making vapourware? They need to finish the game so they can earn some
money on all the work invested.

I think your posts are simply sour grapes and can't understand the reason for it. We
have a saying in Norway when people appear to be very grumpy and rude: "Maybe you
woke up on the wrong foot today". [;)]


I propose you make a reality check. Compare the feedback we receive from Steve about
the progress with MWIF with all other computer games being created. Then you will see
that most computer games companies say very very little and only post occasional
screenshots in magazines and on their web sites.

I think you believe that as long as Steve is not posting new screenshots every day then
he is NOT doing anything. That is completely wrong. A lot is being done to the MWIF
code that can not be shown in screenshots.

If you had bothered to look at the state MWIF is in now and compare it to the state the
latest beta CWIF was in then you can't avoid to see the big difference. It's a lot of
work. Just look at the work already being finished with MWIF and then common sense
would say that it's a real chance that MWIF could be released this year.

You have waited 10 years for a computer WIF (as we have too), but I think you are
mixing apples and pears when you believe the progress now is the same as with CWIF.
Remember that Steve has NOT worked on MWIF for 10 years. He has worked only
1-2 years on MWIF. If you see the work done is these 1-2 years and compare it
with CWIF then you simply can't say that the progress is not better now than then.
It's light years ahead. One reason for this is that Chris was working in his free time
while Steve is decicating his work time and free time to MWIF. You simply
can't expect more than that.

Remember the playtesters have the beta version of MWIF and they are happy
with the state of the game and the progress being made. If you don't believe Matrix
Games then you should at least believe them. They are regular WIF fans like
you and me.

I guess you have to eat your words when MWIF is being released and we can all play
the game we want. So be prepared for this day. It will come sooner than you expect. [:)]

Even I posted only 7 posts, this does not signify that I am not constantly reading your progress......

Then what's happening with the game should be obvious. For someone so well informed you surprisingly don't seem to have grasped something as fundamental as the difference between CWiF and MWiF.

All of you that are spending a lot of time and efforts to develop MWiF, do not answer to the main question: When finally we poor peopole will be able to play a definitive version of WiF for computer?

Nobody, not even Steve knows that exactly. That's the nature of a large software engineering project. My guess would be about Christmas.

I am not honestly able to see the "consistent progress"...

Steve has had to do a thousand behind-the-scenes things on this project that are vital to its completion but don't produce much tangible that can be displayed. On top of that he has revised maps, produced new unit counters, updated and corrected scenarios, opened discussions on strategy for all the major powers, organised beta testing and performed numerous other tasks. Blind Freddie can see that there has been consistent progress.

...and, after ten years waiting I am not interested in: "involving the potential user-base and keeping them informed".

Why not? Would you prefer that experienced Wiffers weren't involved or that we weren't kept informed of what was happening? How does the length of time you have been waiting affect this? It should be obvious that a quality product is worth investing the appropriate amount of time in. We've all been waiting a long time for this game but to be kept informed and to have a chance to provide input helps to pass the time. What's your alternative? Rushing a sub-standard game out? Bollocks.

The only consistent progress would be the real release of the game (if willing to do so)
This is the question !! The rest are only words.......

Well that final flourish doesn't actually make any sense. It's like saying "the only progress in building a brick wall is to finish the wall". Utter nonsense. Consistent progress is to keep adding bricks to the unfinished edifice, which is clearly what's happening.

The bottom line is that Steve gets paid when this sucker is finished so he's working flat-out to get it done. Having said that, he's determined to get it right too. That takes time and there have been other factors out of his control like the graphics not being ready when expected but as you're so well informed, I'm sure you're aware of that.

Stomping your feet like a spoilt child and demanding that you want your lollipop NOW isn't going to get you your lollipop any faster.

Before you fire off an angry response, please address the specific questions I've asked of you.

Cheers, Neilster

I read all your answers, so I have to reply and repeat just few things:

- I'm not looking for a free relase of this game, if this would be available I probably be the first to buy it;

- I have already a BETA version;

- I always trust in Shannon V. OKeets (see also my statement about Shannon V. OKeets);

- I am really (I could not explain why) aware of all the efforts to develop that game;

- I have already seen all the screenshots and those ones corrected;

- all of you actually do not really know the release date of MWiF (spring, now this Christmas -but is a not a sure date-, etc.)Try to explain to yourself why?!!;

- I could say that Matrix Games probably do not really want to make this game available for a lot of reasons that I could not write onto this post.

Surely Christmas is not so far away and we will see...... if MWiF will be availabe for that date I will be the first to be glad and to come back on this forum. Till that date I will remain in (a laughing) silence ........but for now all we have are only empty words......

ORIGINAL: werwolf
- all of you actually do not really know the release date of MWiF (spring, now this Christmas -but is a not a sure date-, etc.)Try to explain to yourself why?!!;

- I could say that Matrix Games probably do not really want to make this game available for a lot of reasons that I could not write onto this post.

Surely Christmas is not so far away and we will see...... if MWiF will be availabe for that date I will be the first to be glad and to come back on this forum. Till that date I will remain in (a laughing) silence ........but for now all we have are only empty words......

Most computer games do NOT give a release date far in advance and say for sure that
they will release the game on this date no matter what. They give a tentative date like
spring 2007 or simply 2008. Why do you demand more from MWIF? We don't want
a product rushed to the market to make some extra sales (like Civ4 last December).
We want a high quality product released.

The release date of MWIF is that it will be released when it's finished. It's as simple as
that. Matrix Games have not promised any date they can not keep. But according to
how much of the game is already finished there is an estimate of this Christmas. But
if it's released some months later, then so what?

Why on earth would Matrix Games not want to release this game? Why start the project
in the first place if they don't get a game they can sell and make money? Steve is
paid when the game is released so he would also be very eager to finish MWIF. But he
won't release an unfinished product and we should be grateful that when MWIF hit the
shelves it won't have a lot of bugs and look unfinished. We have waited so long already
that we deserve a truly good product when it's finally released.

I think the tone of your last message shows a rude teenager who finds some kind of
pleasure in belittling the hard work of others. You have absolutely no idea of how
computer games are developed. Steve's monthly reports tell us all we need to know
about the progress of MWIF and as far as I can tell MWIF is getting closer and closer
to being finished. What more can be ask for? Do you really understand the complexity
of creating MWIF? One aspect is to create a world map at the European scale with
coast lines and rivers hand drawn etc. Think about the time needed for that.

You speak all we have is empty words and you want to remain in laughing silence
until the game is released (which you doubt will ever happen). Well, that says it all.
I think this shows your messages are only troll messages and you find some kind of
pleasure in provoking dedicated WIF players and the developers. Maybe you want us
to believe your fantasy that MWIF will never be released? I don't know.

Only time will tell, but I'm 99.99% sure that time will prove you wrong. [:)]

I am not honestly able to see the "consistent progress"

And yet, I, as well as others, have seen great progress over the last year... so I disagree.

and, after ten years waiting I am not interested in: "involving the potential user-base and keeping them informed".

That's nice. But Shannon O'keets only has to please his boss at Matrix/2by3. Not me or you.

Don't get me wrong: I am impressed with the level of involvment that Mr. O'keets has had with this forum, and his receptivity to input therefrom. But that was, and remains AFAIK, his choice as far as the approach in working on this software.

Contrast this with the style seen on other titles under work around here. You should notice the difference.

But ultimately, Mr. O'keets doesn't owe me/us the level of involvment that he has allowed...

all of you actually do not really know the release date of MWiF (spring, now this Christmas -but is a not a sure date-, etc.)Try to explain to yourself why?!!;

I assume that Shannon himself only has a "target" date in mind. Targets are goals. That is all.

Now, if Mr. O'keets has stated at some point "release date is 15 December! Enjoy!", and then that date was missed for whatever reason, then forgive me, but I suspect that you would be threatening litigation and posting strongly worded negative opinions of those developments. "Why didnt you know!?! No wait, you knew! You deliberately lied!"

I have seen similar antics in other forums (by other disappointed fans).

I could say that Matrix Games probably do not really want to make this game available for a lot of reasons that I could not write onto this post.

If you don't feel like expressing yourself, it makes it tough to write a worthwhile reply.

I have seen posts about the conspiracies of Matrix "sitting" on the title for ADG. They didn't make sense to me, but I might be a bit dim...

Surely Christmas is not so far away and we will see...... if MWiF will be availabe for that date I will be the first to be glad and to come back on this forum. Till that date I will remain in (a laughing) silence ........but for now all we have are only empty words......

Personally, I feel that Xmas is probably an optimistic target. But I am not an insider, so I could be wrong.

I imagine that the AI for the game is going to be a bear to tweak. The CWiF version had no AI what-so-ever, so this had to be cobbled together from scratch, I believe.

But I fail to see what you would be laughing in silence about. Is it because you feel that you knew all along something the rest of us can't figure out?

but for now all we have are only empty words

Words are never empty my friend [;)]

ORIGINAL: werwolf

- I'm not looking for a free relase of this game, if this would be available I probably be the first to buy it; Looks good doesn't it [:)]

- I have already a BETA version; Hopefull its CWiF (which has bugs) not MWiF (which would meen somone violated the NDA).

- I have already seen all the screenshots and those ones corrected; Look good don't they [:)]

- all of you actually do not really know the release date of MWiF (spring, now this Christmas -but is a not a sure date-, etc.)Try to explain to yourself why?!!;

You know there is a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) which precludes any member of the beta team from discussing beta testing. So the only one who could answer your question is Shannon V. OKeets.


The MWiF beta team (and backups) was created by Greyshaft 12/27/2005

The first monthly report on the status of the beta was posted by Shannon V. OKeets 7/31/2005

Shannon V. OKeets posted 11/1/2005 that the spring release date had not become hopeless.

Obviously the game did not get released in spring of 2006.

I would love to tell you more. But this is as far as I will venture on this topic due to the NDA.

You will have to accept that the beta team is working Shannon V. OKeets (moderator of this board and the beta) as hard as we can.

[:-]Werwolf get a life and please quit trolling. All we see from you is your shallow attitude and even poorer attempt at a personality. Please crawl back under your rock and quit trying to sun your serpent attitude in a forum thread that only was a small attempt at having some merchandise released. If it was up to morons like you all software would be released way too soon so you could claim it is full of bugs amd holes. So obviously you have no life and only feel that you need to upset apple carts and bang away with a lot of noise. See this for what it is a shallow attempt to take your pathetic life and give it justification. If I get banned for being honest about you then that will be the prioce for standing up for what is right and not for what is wrong. In another time and place you would be just another petty thug or worse. Please, get a life.

Warewolf has a good point we (meening the beta team) missed the spring release date.

I would have to agree with him somewhat. It can become very frustrating after 10+ years waiting for a game.

Matrix has release dates on games posted on other sites, MWiF is not one of them. It's sort of like "Duke Nukem - Forever" release date "When its done".

It can become very frustrating after 10+ years waiting for a game.

But Matrix has only had the title for only a fraction of that time. And in that time, I have seen great strides.

*shrugs*