Matrix Games Forums

Originally posted by Yogi Yohan:
I think the Elefant (aka Ferdinand) is not correctly represented in WIR. There were just 90 built, and they were conversions of the rejected Porsche Tiger design.

So, with no production line for Porsche Tigers running, no more Elefants could be made after those 90. But in WIR there's Elefant factories going in both the 1943 and 1944 scenarios. This is not historical, by the time of the Battle of Kursk all the Elefants that were going to be made had been made already, and all of them were used by the 9th Army in the northern pincer - with disastrous results, one might add.

IMHO the Elefant should be a "cost 99" unit that you cannot upgrade to and you cannot choose to produce. On the other hand, the 653rd and 654th JPz Batallions should come complete with 45 Elefants each.

Originally posted by Mist:
Good idea, Yogi! If it is possible to create those two JPz batalions with enough Elephants in them and with correct arival data, then it is the thing that should be done. By the way, what you think about Soviet Su-76? They were "produced" on Pz-III chasis, so if there were not enough Pz-III captured, then Su-76 could not be produced in adequate numbers. I think that they must be removed from '41 scenario(to evade their unhistorical appearing) or replaced by something.

Originally posted by RickyB:

Hi Yogi,

I just looked things over for these scenarios. I don't see an active Elefant factory in the 1943 scenario, and the 1944 the scenario itself shows one but it automatically converts in the Axis first turn to the Nashorn. No way of stopping that conversion but it probably should start out as the Nashorn in the first place. I don't see a problem with the factories otherwise, but I will make a change to the 44 campaign.

Sorry I didn't give the 653rd and 654th the full 45 apiece in 1943. I knew there were 90 but left a few out for maintenance or breakdowns. I can change it for the next release also.

As to the cost and making more, I understand what you are saying, but don't know if it is a worthwhile change. The game allows the player to control output for the other AFVs, so if he wants more Elefants, why not? As far as I have ever been able to tell, only the two battalions can use the Elefants, so extras won't allow other units to use them.

Let me know what you think! Thanks.

You're right about the scenarios, I don't know where I got from the notion of an Elephant factory in 1943 scenario. Regarding the 653rd and 654th JPz batallions, they are close to real strenght in the -43 scenario, but I was thinking more of the -41 scenario, where they arrive at strenght 4. If you cannot build Elephants, they would have to arrive at full strenght.

What makes the Elephant different from other vehicles, and the reason I think it should not be available for further production is that it was a leftover from an abandoned project. The Germans could not have built any more Elephants, because they were building Henschel Tigers instead of Porsche Tigers. The two are mutually exclusive.

Originally posted by Yogi Yohan:
You're right about the scenarios, I don't know where I got from the notion of an Elephant factory in 1943 scenario. Regarding the 653rd and 654th JPz batallions, they are close to real strenght in the -43 scenario, but I was thinking more of the -41 scenario, where they arrive at strenght 4. If you cannot build Elephants, they would have to arrive at full strenght.

What makes the Elephant different from other vehicles, and the reason I think it should not be available for further production is that it was a leftover from an abandoned project. The Germans could not have built any more Elephants, because they were building Henschel Tigers instead of Porsche Tigers. The two are mutually exclusive.

Originally posted by RickyB:

For the 1941 campaign, the game is designed to fire up the one (I think that is it) Elefant factory at a very low level and then crank out the production until the Nashorn becomes avaailable at which point it will convert forever. I guess that taking the Elefant out of the AFV upgrade path and giving the two battalions their Elefants in full in early June should do the trick.

I welcome comments from everyone about this before I actually do anything with it. Thanks again for the ideas, Yogi.

No problem! Another reason why it would be better to just make the Elephant a Cost 99 unit is that if you play with Human Factory and upgrade control, then the lone Elefant factory will NOT convert of itself.

[ May 10, 2001: Message edited by: Yogi Yohan ]

Originally posted by Mist:
Yogi and all, what do you think about stats of Elephant? Knowing its battle results, I would not give him that BEST stats.

(Originally posted by Mist) By the way, what you think about Soviet Su-76? They were "produced" on Pz-III chasis, so if there were not enough Pz-III captured, then Su-76 could not be produced in adequate numbers. I think that they must be removed from '41 scenario(to evade their unhistorical appearing) or replaced by something.

Originally posted by Hoth:
Learn something new everyday. I never knew that the SU-76 was built on captured Pz-III's. Thought it was built on the T-60 or T-70.

[ May 11, 2001: Message edited by: Hoth ]

[ May 11, 2001: Message edited by: Hoth ]