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I've now read through the entire new manual and run thorugh the tutorial to shake out most of the rust from not having really touched Harpoon in a couple of years +. I have two questions someone might be able help with.

1) In the manual they state that submarines cannot be a part of a formation. In another part of the manual they talk about the special case of (IIRC) an SSNDS, a sub that is escorting a surface group. It mentions the special sonar communications to call the SSNDS to communications depth. Is the SSNDS concept (including the special communications) implemented in H3ANW?

2) I ran through the Kilo scenario (player is Iran, gets 3 Kilos, 3 patrol craft, some a/c to detroy some tankers). I had logistics option off because I wasn't sure about the design of the a/c stores in the scenario, but my intention overall is to play with it on.

How do diesel-electric (and other non-nuclear) subs work with respect to their power plants in H3ANW? I noticed the Fuel and Battery entries on the unit report. I noticed the batteries and fuel both go to zero and the sub stop dead (0 speed) pretty quickly after a high speed run. I brought the sub to periscope depth hoping to re-charge batteries, but nothing happened. When I brought the sub to periscope depth and set speed to creep, the Fuel setting jumped to 7000 days and the Batteries began recharging.

Here's the wierd part. At various times, across the 3 Kilos, I saw the following combinations: a) Fuel decreasing while Batteries increasing, b) Fuel decreasing while Batteries decreasing, c) Fuel increasing while batteries increasing, and d) Fuel jumping from 0 to 7000 days when first at periscope and creep (as mentioned above).

How are they supposed to work? What is the normal procedure for recharging in H3ANW? I will be happy to look in the manual if you point out a section I missed, but I couldn't find any reference to these procedures at all.

ORIGINAL: witpqs
1) In the manual they state that submarines cannot be a part of a formation. In another part of the manual they talk about the special case of (IIRC) an SSNDS, a sub that is escorting a surface group. It mentions the special sonar communications to call the SSNDS to communications depth. Is the SSNDS concept (including the special communications) implemented in H3ANW?

No, special communications for submarines (like the bell-ringer signal in "Fleet Command") are not currently implemented. (If you play with any Realism Setting other than "Full Realism", e.g. Auto-Datalinks, you always have continous comms with them).

That said, you _can_ attach a submarine to a surface group, and it can be pretty useful as an advanced scout (and hidden ace) and also as a guard against enemy subs (LA-clas subs often undertook CVBG-guard duty in RL). You have to be careful to keep the sub's patrol zone cleanly seperated from your helicopter/aircraft ASW patrols, however. Your ASW patrols tend to follow a "drop a torp and ask questions later" policy, and it can be easy to lose one of your own subs to them in such a circumstance.

I'll try to answer to the best of my knowledge, but be warned that there are *many* things modelled in Harpoon ANW that can influence what you see on screen.

1) There are two difficulty options: datalinks always working and full realism. At full realism you do not have contacts with your subs at all, except when they do occasionally surface. You can give orders to them at the beginning of the scenario (assign them to mission, assign waypoints and related orders etc.) but then they disappear for good - like enemy units. If full realism is *not* selected, then you can control your subs like any other unit.

So, if I understand correctly your question, a way to simulate a sub costantly communicating with a parent formation at full realism would be to keep her at periscope depth (communication mast out of the water) or to give to her multiple waypoints with some of them bringing the boat at communication level: when the boat comes again at com depth you can regain control and adjust her orders as the situation requires.

2) I admit that I do not have much knowledge of diesel boast in Harpoon ANW. However, generally the fuel shows the autonomy of a platform *given the current speed*, so you can see an F-15 with 4 h fuel at cruise speed go suddently at 20 mins if the pilot kicks the afterburner, only to return at, let's say, 3:30 h fuel left if the speed comes down again to cruise.

Battery is generally recharged while diesels are running, so I feel it is normal that the Kilo batteries recharge while the conventional fuel goes down. In extreme speeds' cases the program can actually warn that you do not have much fuel left in the boat to sustain that speed, so the autonomy decreases to almost zero - but it sounds funny to me. Maybe a bug "increases" the conventional fuel consumption on a diesel at flank by an unnatural factor (like: autonomy at full speed = 1/1000 than autonomy at cruise speed, instead of a more correct 1/10) - but I really do not know if this could be the case.

ORIGINAL: witpqs

1) In the manual they state that submarines cannot be a part of a formation. In another part of the manual they talk about the special case of (IIRC) an SSNDS, a sub that is escorting a surface group. It mentions the special sonar communications to call the SSNDS to communications depth. Is the SSNDS concept (including the special communications) implemented in H3ANW?

Physically, you can add a sub to a task group just like any other vessel. However, once you get it into the group, the Formation editor automatically assigns it to a tiny Patrol Zone on the ASW Axis and you cannot change it at all. It accepts no new PZ orders.

You can still get around it by assigning all your other ships to Patrol Zones relative to the sub's 'Fixed' PZ, but this is a real pain, IMO. Easier to just leave the dumb thing out. I've mentioned this to AGSI in the past and the reply has been that it will not be changed.

2) << snip >>

Here's the wierd part. At various times, across the 3 Kilos, I saw the following combinations: a) Fuel decreasing while Batteries increasing, b) Fuel decreasing while Batteries decreasing, c) Fuel increasing while batteries increasing, and d) Fuel jumping from 0 to 7000 days when first at periscope and creep (as mentioned above).

How are they supposed to work? What is the normal procedure for recharging in H3ANW? I will be happy to look in the manual if you point out a section I missed, but I couldn't find any reference to these procedures at all.

I *think* that the situation you mention in (d) is because the diesel engines cannot operate at depths below periscope depth. That is likely why they are shown at zero. When you come to periscope depth, they *should* be recharging your batteries automatically.

You mention several unique situations. It might just be simpler to see a saved game. If you like, the Harpoon forum at StrategyZoneOnline allows for members to post small files if you do not have access to an FTP site. It would certainly facilitate examination of the situation you describe.

ORIGINAL: witpqs
a) Fuel decreasing while Batteries increasing,

Standard battery rechanrging cycle, running on diesels.

ORIGINAL: witpqs
b) Fuel decreasing while Batteries decreasing,

Was this at high speed? The diesel engines will typically only maintain lower speeds so if you order higher speeds at snorkelling dpeths then the electric motors will kick back in and start to drain the batteries even as the diesels continue to try and recharge.

ORIGINAL: witpqs
c) Fuel increasing while batteries increasing,

Is this over a period of time or just at an instance of reducing speed?

ORIGINAL: witpqs
d) Fuel jumping from 0 to 7000 days when first at periscope and creep (as mentioned above).

Not sure about this. There have been some issues in the past with sub fuel/battery readouts but they are supposed to be all fixed.

Daniel

[Deleted by Admins]

Folks,

Thanks for the numerous and helpful replies. In response to some of the questions/clarifications you asked...

I would like to play on full realism, so I was really asking about the special sub comms that were mentioned in the later part of teh manual. I think VCDH answered that part. Several of you answered about the formation editor (I think I'll keep the subs separate). Thanks.

I knew the genaralities of diesel electric subs. I did not know that they would use diesel and batteries together (thanks!) at times.

- Unfortunately, I saw the Fuel and batteries going down together when at depths below periscope depth. If the diesels only work there and above, then I'm afraid that there was some kind of problem.

- The Batteries going up while Fuel went down I expected. However, I had to be moving for this to happen (I used creep speed). Can the batteries be recharged while sitting motionless (I believe they can in real life)? I suggest giving control to the player (or AI if not micromanaged), so that a player can opt when to recharge batteries. After all, doing so is more noisy and I assume that is modeled.

- Fuel did not always show zero below periscope depth. Most of the time it was non-zero and decreasing just like the Batteries display was. One really weird thing about Fuel was that, it would jump up to 7000 days whenever I went to periscope depth and creep (never went faster at that depth). Is this normal? Is this a result of the 'Logistics' box being un-checked? (VCDH - I understand about the fuel being shown as time remaining rather than amount. The problem here is that it was impossible to know how much - if any - was really left, without changing depth and moving.)

- I did see sometimes when Fuel was 0 and Batteries were going down (a few hours left).

- Only when Fuel and Batteries were both 0 was the sub immobile (except for depth). Going to periscope depth and creep solved that (as mentioned above).

Hopefully I answered all your questions (don't have a save game).

Here is how I presume that diesel-electrics should work:

Fuel: Starting amount is what's on board at scenario start. Decreases whenever diesel is on (moving or recharging batteries), at a rate needed to do the job (based on movement speed plus recharging or not). Depth required for diesels to be used could vary for different subs (hypothetically I guess - I don't know if it does in real life). If it's modeled then at sea or in port refueling could increase fuel amount. If 'no logistics' option then I guess fuel could increase on its own.

Batteries: Starting amount is what's on board at scenario start. Decreases whenever moving without diesels (or with diesels if needed for a boost in speed) at a rate needed to do the job (based on movement speed). Also decreases at a very slow rate even when not moving to run sub's systems. Increases when charging at a rate dictated by how fast the sub is moving (moving faster means more diesel used for speed and less diesel avaialble to recharge).

Suggestions:

Recharging the batteries should be player selectable (at least over-rideable). Obviously this is dependant on the sub being at an appropriate depth.

For ships and subs, in addition to the current practice of showing fuel as time-remaining, the amount of fuel remaining should also be displayed (in a separate line).

ORIGINAL: witpqs

- The Batteries going up while Fuel went down I expected. However, I had to be moving for this to happen (I used creep speed). Can the batteries be recharged while sitting motionless (I believe they can in real life)? I suggest giving control to the player (or AI if not micromanaged), so that a player can opt when to recharge batteries. After all, doing so is more noisy and I assume that is modeled.

Here's some more stuff to confuse you. [:)]

The rate of re-charge isn't controllable. There was discussion about it should be faster / slower than the rate of depletion, etc., but, in the end, the game just adds charge at the same rate it normally depletes.

- Fuel did not always show zero below periscope depth. Most of the time it was non-zero and decreasing just like the Batteries display was. One really weird thing about Fuel was that, it would jump up to 7000 days whenever I went to periscope depth and creep (never went faster at that depth). Is this normal? Is this a result of the 'Logistics' box being un-checked? (VCDH - I understand about the fuel being shown as time remaining rather than amount. The problem here is that it was impossible to know how much - if any - was really left, without changing depth and moving.)

The box you are referring to is "Aircraft Logistics" and they only apply to airfields and ammo dumps. Vessel logistics is always activated.