1942 and Caucasus attack

Lorenzo from Spain · Post by **Lorenzo from Spain** » Mon Jul 09, 2001 11:58 pm

I think the Caucasus strategy is correct because:
1) Between the Don and the Terek river there is a big plain without rivers, swamps or forest, where the superior movility of Wermatch and their air supply capability allow encircle and destroy the russian forces.
2) The posession of railroad cross in this plain, allows cut the supply to Sebastopol (wich will fall without any cost) and open the south way to Stalingrad; and the south way to Stalingrad asecure the right flank of the principal way of attack to Stalingrad.
3) In the Caucasus there are Grodzny and Baku (1 VP each), as important as Stalingrad. And more: from Grodzny, Baku and the others oil centers are in range of german fighters: even defending them, the russian will can´t save them from destruction.
4) Is possible to cutt off the comunication bettewn Caucasus and the rest of Russia. This means you can´t send reinforcements there. And the reinforcements are a only and very long way of supply.
5) Best of all: all people think the conquest of Caucasus is imposible. And all people think the attack is not serious, only for distract forces... until is too late.

German and soviet player must consider seriously the possibility of a Caucasus attack.

It´s possible (even in PEBM against a veteran) conquest Baku in october 42.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 12:46 am

Originally posted by Lorenzo from Spain:
I think the Caucasus strategy is correct because:

Yes, Lorenzo, it is correct but it also depends heavily on the state of Wehrmacht in comparison with Soviet Army in 1942. I had made this against AI once(in second year of 1941 campaign) but had my back many times covered by cold sweat since flanks were so weak. I think it is much safer to capture Stalingrad. Look: Soviet player needs about 9 infantry armies to defend Grozny along the Terek river(mountain warfare is too difficult and slow). It is possible to rail transfer about 10 full strength inf. divisions each turn. German player needs about 8 turns to cover distance between Rostov and Terek. Considering some active defensive actions on his way, it can take more. So, I don't see the way to surprise attack to Caucasus. Though, everything is possible in human.vs.human game. I think I've heard from someone who played Axis by email that he managed to capture Grozny, but not for long time.

Lorenzo from Spain · Post by **Lorenzo from Spain** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 1:16 am

I´ve conquered not only Baku, but all the others oil centers of Caucasus this way:

Sending a high power motorized force to Caucasus. To hide my attack, I send to Stalingrad other motorized force... of italians, rumanians, hungarians.
At the crossroad, some forces take the south way of Stalingrad. The soviet player, again, thinks Stalingrad are in danger.
Quickly, the german launch a massive and surprising attack over the Terek river line, with massive air attack too. Not over the railroad (ussually well defended), but more to east. When cut the railroad, the soviets units on the west lost the supply, because the mountains block the pass.
The german forces advances to the crossroad of Caspian sea, supplied by air. When occupied, the russian can´t send reinforcements to Caucasus.
At this moment, the soviet show the menace and send reinforcements througt the railroad of caspian. But then, when soviet player concentrate their best units there, some german motorized units cut the supply way from the railroad to South Stalingrad (two movements).
Some german mountain divisions destroy the out of supply soviet units of Terek river, and cross the Caucasus to south oil centers. Little units can cross it like Hannibal (but with air supply). These cities have weak garrisons... if any; and with the way to Russia cut, the soviet player can´t send reinforcements.
If not possible do this, is possible destroy Baku with air raids, when in range of fighters.
The T-34 don´t works well only with vodka!

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 1:39 am

You had very good luck. Your story is realy amazing!!

Lokioftheaesir · Post by **Lokioftheaesir** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 4:19 am

Originally posted by Mist:

I think I've heard from someone who played Axis by email that he managed to capture Grozny, but not for long time.

Hi Mist & Lorenzo

That was in a game i am playing i think. (I'm Soviet) Railed many divs south as axis advanced just as you said and held on terek for short time but opponent is good player and forced me out. He took grozny but didnt get much further south as he was trying to CUT OFF and BOMB the oil supply rather than take it(i think) Constant soviet attacks from Stalingrad area forced him to defend there rather than send more troops south. Grozny was recaptured by christmas.(i also had help from heroic soviet partisans)
The Axis can take the Caucasus if the Soviet player only sends minor forces there. If he lets it fall he will suffer severe loss of production latter (and loss of OP's) which may make it very hard for him to take it back, if ever.(all those axis units get to relocate north again after the conquest)

Nick

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 7:05 am

Originally posted by Lorenzo from Spain:
... supplied by air.

Did you do this in version 3? Air supply is *much* less powerful than before, and it seems you rely heavily on air-supplied units for this tactic.

You can no longer keep panzer corps in the Soviet rear supplied only by air. Air supply now only increases readiness, it doesn't change the supply level of the square, meaning your units start taking equipment losses because they are in level 0 supply. Also, once unsupplied units have been out of supply for a couple of turns, they are reduced to just one square of movement per turn.

It still may work, it depends on how long these air supplied units are expected to operate in level 0 supply.

[ July 09, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:21 am

In a game I am playing I have been pushed to the gates of Moscow (German units are two positions away), lost Leningrad and am getting pushed into the Swampy region past the city, while Rostov is surrounded and German troops are darn close to even Stalingrad.
And its only started with the Snow and the rain.

Now I have made mistakes.
I was used to playing Secrond Front and was quite good at that and I admit I was sure I was capable in holding any opponent, over confidence has killed me.
I also never new you could empty out the RGVK. So here I was waiting for god knows how long for units to come up to strength instead of unleashing them.
Niether did I know of the lack of communication with my units 90% of the time my attacks never took place or units didnt move.......Oh how I suffered due to that. Thank god my opponent told me about that rule....I dont remember it in Second Front.

I do have one thing on my side I hope.
And here it is............

My enemy is continuing to advance on a broad scale across the map. He is showing no signs of stopping. I hope this will work to my advantage. When will the Soviets gain enough readiness to strike back?.

If you all wish I can keep you informed of my battles in detail via my Soviet news service.

Also I wouldn't mind having another game as the Germans.........So if anyone wants a go let me know. I did discuss it with another lad here but due to work and other hassles I could not begin one, now I am free and quite willing to play to games at once.

Mighty Muzrub being thrashed.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 12:04 pm

Originally posted by Muzrub:
If you all wish I can keep you informed of my battles in detail via my Soviet news service.

I do wish, Muzrub! I have no time for regular pbem yet, but I will be happy to see how others play it. How do you suppose to make information available? email? www?

JustAGame · Post by **JustAGame** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 12:20 pm

Originally posted by Muzrub:

Niether did I know of the lack of communication with my units 90% of the time my attacks never took place or units didnt move.......Oh how I suffered due to that. Thank god my opponent told me about that rule....

In terms of the game, can anyone explain this rule? I understand what it emulates, but not the game mechanics.

Kuniworth · Post by **Kuniworth** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 12:23 pm

Yes Im also interested. Maybe can you create a forum were you describe how the game is proceeding. Would be interesting...

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 1:11 pm

Originally posted by JustAGame:

In terms of the game, can anyone explain this rule? I understand what it emulates, but not the game mechanics.

It looks like every plot symbol has a good chance to be missed. Example: you order '4s4s' to your Sov. inf. army. But it accomplishes only part of them. So it can look like 44, or 4ss or 4

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 2:30 pm

Originally posted by Mist:
It looks like every plot symbol has a good chance to be missed.

You guys must be talking about the failure of Soviet unit plots in the beginning right? If so, look in the manual, page 31, "Soviet Command 1941". From June till October Soviet units may not follow orders, or do them completely. A very frustrating time to be Soviet, no?

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 2:38 pm

I do wish, Muzrub! I have no time for regular pbem yet, but I will be happy to see how others play it. How do you suppose to make information available? email? www?

I'll post here about the battles. I am about to start two new ones so I will be busy.

I will only post the one campaign though.

Well sit back and enjoy the ride.

Stories from each week from 1941 to 1945.

This is going to drive me nuts..........

Lorenzo from Spain · Post by **Lorenzo from Spain** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:09 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:
[QB]

Did you do this in version 3?
You can no longer keep panzer corps in the Soviet rear supplied only by air. Air supply now only increases readiness, it doesn't change the supply level of the square, meaning your units start taking equipment losses because they are in level 0 supply.

I know the lost of force, when supply is “0". That’s why I don ́t use good tanks to deep penetrations. But there are a lot of advantages when enemies are cut off from their own supplies.
The He-177 is not only a good bomber, but can transport, if necessary, a lot of tons of supply.

Ím playing WIR.3

I think Lutwaffe can maintain supplied, in combat conditions and advancing two hexes: 1 Pz division, 1 infantry corp and 2 others little units (three or four mountain divisions to conquer and maintain Bakumi and Tblisi.
If necessary, you can use the bombers to supply other units, but usually is better use bombers... as bombers.

Lorenzo from Spain · Post by **Lorenzo from Spain** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:12 pm

Originally posted by Muzrub:
In a game I am playing I have been pushed to the gates of Moscow (German units are two positions away), lost Leningrad And its only started with the Snow and the rain.

Also I wouldn't mind having another game as the Germans.........So if anyone wants a go let me know. Mighty Muzrub being thrashed.

Dońt cry for Leningrad, Muzrub. The fate of this city is fall in any 1942 PEBM game. As German, I always conquest it before october; as Russian, I always lost it.

Well, Íd like play against you. Íll be russian, and Íll try defend Leningrad again. Every game, I try another tactic to defend this city (without success). And again, Íll try use the Red Air force without be slaughtered by Lutwaffe.

My strategic opinions about 1942, as Russian:
Voronezh is the key of Stalingrad. If Voronezh resist and the Don line south of Rostov resist too, the supply line of Germans advancing to Stalingrad can be easily cut.
Never attack, except over German weak points, isolated units or to avoid encirclement. Wait.
Reserve the Red Air Force, training it and gaining experience, until august, when the allied strategic bombing force the Lutwaffe send there their best fighters.
Form a second defensive line, with the best tanks. This way, when Pz units penetrate the first front (and with Lutwaffe, this is possible in any point), are stopped by the fresh second line, who can isolate and destroy them (with luck).
Pray a lot to St Marx and St. Lenin, until winter

Lorenzo from Spain · Post by **Lorenzo from Spain** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:13 pm

Originally posted by Muzrub:
In a game I am playing I have been pushed to the gates of Moscow (German units are two positions away), lost Leningrad And its only started with the Snow and the rain.

Also I wouldn't mind having another game as the Germans.........So if anyone wants a go let me know. Mighty Muzrub being thrashed.

Dońt cry for Leningrad, Muzrub. The fate of this city is fall in any 1942 PEBM game. As German, I always conquest it before october; as Russian, I always lost it.

Well, Íd like play against you. Íll be russian, and Íll try defend Leningrad again. Every game, I try another tactic to defend this city (without success). And again, Íll try use the Red Air force without be slaughtered by Lutwaffe.

My strategic opinions about 1942, as Russian:
Voronezh is the key of Stalingrad. If Voronezh resist and the Don line south of Rostov resist too, the supply line of Germans advancing to Stalingrad can be easily cut.
Never attack, except over German weak points, isolated units or to avoid encirclement. Wait.
Reserve the Red Air Force, training it and gaining experience, until august, when the allied strategic bombing force the Lutwaffe send there their best fighters.
Form a second defensive line, with the best tanks. This way, when Pz units penetrate the first front (and with Lutwaffe, this is possible in any point), are stopped by the fresh second line, who can isolate and destroy them (with luck).
Pray a lot to St Marx and St. Lenin, until winter

Lorenzo from Spain · Post by **Lorenzo from Spain** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:16 pm

Originally posted by Mist:
You had very good luck. Your story is realy amazing!!

Two times, Íve played this strategic against two good human players. Both, Íve conquered Tbilisi and Batumi without problem; and one of them Baku. (In the other, I ve prefered destroy their oil capability).
Ím not saying the German always must attack the Caucasus. A player NEVER must act predictable. I say: the german and the Russian must know that exist the possibility of a Caucasus conquest, and act consequently.
If russian player think is not possible a serious attack in this way, an strong german mechanized attack, backed by Lutwaffe, will decide the game. And so fast and so easy, that is not funny.
I ́ve tried play this way against computer. Well, it was even easier conquest Baku. But with a serious attack, of course: Four Pz divisions, some infantry corps and some Rumanian or Italian to sacrifice in little motorized corps to cut supplies. And attacks in other points to deceivement.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Tue Jul 10, 2001 6:12 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:
You guys must be talking about the failure of Soviet unit plots in the beginning right? If so, look in the manual, page 31, "Soviet Command 1941". From June till October Soviet units may not follow orders, or do them completely. A very frustrating time to be Soviet, no?

And to top it off, the orders can be delayed, so coordinating an attack by multiple corps is extremely difficult, as I can rarely get more than 1 corps to attack at a time, and never three until winter.

JustAGame · Post by **JustAGame** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 12:15 am

Thanks Mist, Ed and RickyB!

It has been several years since I dove into the manual. While I knew there was a reason my Soviet units weren't following commands, I hadn't a clue as to the specific reason or how long the effect would last.

Muzrub · Post by **Muzrub** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 11:17 am

Lorenzo from Spain

Sorry mate I must have just missed your message. I just startes two new games. So now I have three on the go 1 as Soviets and 2 as Germany.

I dont know how long they will go for. You never know when someone might just give up and not play anymore.
Its looking that way with my Soviet game its been nearly a week or more since I have heard anything back.

But from what you have written I'd love to play you.

Muzrub.