Matrix Games Forums

Thank you Ed. Thank you for give to this forum the "bad" of the movie.
I think I am one of your "folks" as said you to Lorenzo " maybe I should given the name of one of those who argued a german panzer korps going on indefinitely behind enemy lines receving only air supply, was a valid tactic and not an exploit".

Sorry for crash your "game". Im a Gary fan also like you, I would like so much to playtesting the versions but I cant. Seems that you are over me, over every people in this forum.

Im just playing the game... I dont know exactly when is a bug or an exploit but making this movements seems that I am the guilty for make the game unrealistic ( yes I Know that for you is "always" evident if a movement is an exploit). So sorry again for crush the game, sorry for enter in this forum. I dont want to annoy anyone (especially you). So dont worry I will never post again in this forum and sorry everybody for my poor english. Im tired... Im only want to play...

P.S. To all people that have played with me an emotive regards.

Josan.

Hmmm... Ed, it seems like someone's hurt...

Regards, Rundstedt

Geez Ed, What did you do to the poor guy? By the way, no one on any of these forums should worry about us thinking poorly of their English. Many of us, myself included have trouble with this language and we have spoken it all our lives.

Well said, Vic. And Josan, don't worry too much. Most of the guys on this forum are pretty nice most of the time, including Ed , so why don't you two just forgive and forget.

Regards, Rundstedt

Originally posted by Josan:
Thank you Ed. Thank you for give to this forum the "bad" of the movie.
I think I am one of your "folks" as said you to Lorenzo " maybe I should given the name of one of those who argued a german panzer korps going on indefinitely behind enemy lines receving only air supply, was a valid tactic and not an exploit".

Sorry for crash your "game". Im a Gary fan also like you, I would like so much to playtesting the versions but I cant. Seems that you are over me, over every people in this forum.

Im just playing the game... I dont know exactly when is a bug or an exploit but making this movements seems that I am the guilty for make the game unrealistic ( yes I Know that for you is "always" evident if a movement is an exploit). So sorry again for crush the game, sorry for enter in this forum. I dont want to annoy anyone (especially you). So dont worry I will never post again in this forum and sorry everybody for my poor english. Im tired... Im only want to play...

P.S. To all people that have played with me an emotive regards.

Josan.

Josan,

Please continue to post your opinions. Your opinions are as valuable as anyone elses. Your game play is your personal style and many people probably play the same way. Ed wants his games to be military simulations of the actual event. That is his personal opinion and many people share his thoughts but not everybody. Some people see WIR as a game and use the rules to their maximum advantage. Believe me, if the rules of this game were in place during the real thing, the generals would do the same thing you are doing. That is where Ed wants to refine the rules to match the actual conditions. I'm sure that you will play the game even if some of the things that Ed wants are implemented and it wont decrease your enjoyment of the game. Not everything Ed wants gets incorporated into the game. He sometimes complains about that but that is his opinion and I'm sure he feels that you are entitled to your opinion.

Svar

Originally posted by Josan:

Sorry for crash your "game".

Its not my game, its "our" game.

Im a Gary fan also like you, I would like so much to playtesting the versions but I cant.

You *are* playtesting, thats the main reason for this forum to me. There aren't enough "official" playtesters to do any good. Becoming an "official" playtester is not a big deal either, you just impress an existing member with your knowledge and/or playtesting work, and you get invited in. That is why I nominated Mist to the group.

By the way, Mist made it into the group despite not having a solid command of the English language. This language issue isn't that important, after all, Arnuad is French and his English isn't perfect either.

Seems that you are over me, over every people in this forum.

I'm not over *anybody*. The testing group is loosely cooperative but Arnaud (and no one else) has the veto power. Testing group members have no special status on this forum. I have no special privleges whatsoever here.

Im just playing the game... I dont know exactly when is a bug or an exploit but making this movements seems that I am the guilty for make the game unrealistic

You're not the only one who doesn't know when an exploit is an exploit. JustAGame and I don't agree on this. Don, another testing group member, and I don't agree on this, but this doesn't mean anyone has to leave the forum, it just means we agree to disagree, and move on to the next issue.

( yes I Know that for you is "always" evident if a movement is an exploit)

Well, in the case of the panzer corps behind enemy lines, it should be evident to most people who know something of the war. But that too is just my opinion, and there are several who will disagree with that statement.

So sorry again for crush the game, sorry for enter in this forum. I dont want to annoy anyone (especially you). So dont worry I will never post again in this forum and sorry everybody for my poor english. Im tired... Im only want to play...

What did I do, Josan? I don't understand. I don't even remember having some debate with you. The last post you made during the panzer corps argument actually agreed with what I was saying, so when did I attack you? And why does that require you to leave?


When I believe I'm right, Josan, I'm willing to argue about it, stubbornly if necessary, but that doesn't make me any better than anyone else, it just means I have more time to spend in these arguments. I'm a mere amateur at this, if you want to see the real thing go to the ArtWar forum and watch that pompous ass Colin at work. He manages 50+ posts a day (already approaching 6,000 posts to that forum) and never admits to a mistake. Instead he'll just keep arguing indefinitely until he "wins" by endurance alone.

I don't want to be seen as "winning" by endurance alone, it shouldn't be about winning or losing anyway. I learn the most when I'm "losing". I bowed out of the panzer corps argument for that reason as it looked like we were deadlocked, and the end result would come down to who has the most time to keep arguing about it.

I sincerely hope you'll stay, there is no reason for you to leave. I apologize for whatever I said that set you off, since its likely I angered more than just you with it.

Now that's what I call a proper apology.

Regards, Rundstedt

Hear, Hear Ed. Sorry for questioning your Honor!

By the way, I agree with you about Colin, I wonder if he actually works for a living considering all the time that needs to be spent writing all those "politically" oriented posts.

[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: VictorH ]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:



I'm a mere amateur at this, if you want to see the real thing go to the ArtWar forum and watch that pompous ass Colin at work. He manages 50+ posts a day (already approaching 6,000 posts to that forum) and never admits to a mistake. Instead he'll just keep arguing indefinitely until he "wins" by endurance alone.

LOL

Originally posted by VictorH:
By the way, I agree with you about Colin, I wonder if he actually works for a living considering all the time that needs to be spent writing all those "politically" oriented posts.

Its incredible isn't it? He's at 5,400 posts now, I checked. We're not talking about small posts either, more than half of his posts are 5 to 8 paragraphs long, some longer. He's either got the best job in the world, that allows him 8 hours per day to follow a dozen threads, actively involved in all of them simultaneously, or he's a genius able to compose long responses and post them in just a few minutes. Probably a little of both, he's certainly smart and knowledgable about many things, but there are 2 other descriptions I'd like to add, however I don't want to be kicked off the forums.

Sheesh, don't get on the forum for a few days, and look at what happens. Ed, would you behave yourself?

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:



Its incredible isn't it? He's at 5,400 posts now, I checked. We're not talking about small posts either, more than half of his posts are 5 to 8 paragraphs long, some longer. He's either got the best job in the world, that allows him 8 hours per day to follow a dozen threads, actively involved in all of them simultaneously, or he's a genius able to compose long responses and post them in just a few minutes. Probably a little of both, he's certainly smart and knowledgable about many things, but there are 2 other descriptions I'd like to add, however I don't want to be kicked off the forums.

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:



What did I do, Josan? I don't understand. I don't even remember having some debate with you. The last post you made during the panzer corps argument actually agreed with what I was saying, so when did I attack you? And why does that require you to leave?


When I believe I'm right, Josan, I'm willing to argue about it, stubbornly if necessary, but that doesn't make me any better than anyone else, it just means I have more time to spend in these arguments. I'm a mere amateur at this, if you want to see the real thing go to the ArtWar forum and watch that pompous ass Colin at work. He manages 50+ posts a day (already approaching 6,000 posts to that forum) and never admits to a mistake. Instead he'll just keep arguing indefinitely until he "wins" by endurance alone.

I don't want to be seen as "winning" by endurance alone, it shouldn't be about winning or losing anyway. I learn the most when I'm "losing". I bowed out of the panzer corps argument for that reason as it looked like we were deadlocked, and the end result would come down to who has the most time to keep arguing about it.

I sincerely hope you'll stay, there is no reason for you to leave. I apologize for whatever I said that set you off, since its likely I angered more than just you with it.

Ed,

Perhaps you are right. Leave the forum is a stupid idea but I have the sensation that sometimes you have a hard speaking. For example, I dont see the reason to say to somebody that is the same for him win at chess or Wir, do you remember? Also I make the Lorenzos tactic (in fact he learned this when I maked this movements against him) but this dont mean I dont like the realistic games so I think the debate about this is beyond of my knowledge...In this moment I dont know if make a movement or not in my PBEM games for fear to make an exploit

Also I think that we must looking for solutions and not criticize the style of play of gamers. All wargames I have played you can make unrealistic movements...Improve the realism in an older Dos game with memory problems is too much difficult, you Know better than me. But I believe that with this style of play we have seen the weakness of the engine.

Ed, you are makin a great work in the forum and my apologies for that. I will argue with you when become necessary for improve "our" game And thanks to Matrix for meet a very nice people.

Always yours,

Josan "the unrealistic gamer"

Originally posted by Don Shafer:
Sheesh, don't get on the forum for a few days, and look at what happens. Ed, would you behave yourself?

What can I say? I'm a Class A troublemaker. Of course Colin is a Class AAA troublemaker, but that is neither here nor there.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

What can I say? I'm a Class A troublemaker. Of course Colin is a Class AAA troublemaker, but that is neither here nor there.


You guys sound like bonds, what with ratings and all Is it just me, or does Colin seem to enjoy widespread adulation/groupie followings in ArtofWar? BTW Ed, sounds like you had a few little altercations with Mr Wright in the past eh?

Originally posted by Josan:
I have the sensation that sometimes you have a hard speaking. For example, I dont see the reason to say to somebody that is the same for him win at chess or Wir, do you remember?

Yes, I remember:

"We have a difference in perspectives here. You play to win, and any tactic that works is valid. The game being played, whether WIR or Chess, is irrelevent, winning is the important thing."

At the time I felt I was speaking with someone who would use any trick in the book to win. Lorenzo said I was wrong later, but prior to that his defense of his tactic suggested to me he saw nothing wrong with using the exploit, without considering whether the tactic was possible historically or not. As I said, Lorenzo corrected me later, but at the time I saw nothing wrong with my statement, and still don't, given what I didn't know at the time.

Also I make the Lorenzos tactic (in fact he learned this when I maked this movements against him) but this dont mean I dont like the realistic games

I understand that. I now understand Lorenzo feels the same way. The problem was that Lorenzo initially talked about counter measures the Soviets could use to defend against the tactic, which implied to me he saw nothing unrealistic about it, and that was my problem because I felt it to be grossly unrealistic.

so I think the debate about this is beyond of my knowledge...In this moment I dont know if make a movement or not in my PBEM games for fear to make an exploit

There aren't many such exploits in this game. The serious exploits are related to the air supply of unsupplied units, and what should and shouldn't be allowed in a panzer/tank corps. Before starting the game ask your opponent about these things, and decide what tactics the 2 of you will allow in the game or not.

Also I think that we must looking for solutions and not criticize the style of play of gamers.

This can't be avoided, Josan, because to me this is not about a "style of play", its about using a bug in the game to do something that could not have historically happened. Please try to understand, from *my* perspective, I'm not arguing about "style".

All wargames I have played you can make unrealistic movements...

The question is do you still use those movements even though you know them to be unrealistic?

Improve the realism in an older Dos game with memory problems is too much difficult, you Know better than me.

Probably true, fixing the unsupplied units problem may take a lot of work. The problem with what is allowed in a tank corps could be easily solved with a check of the corps contents at the moment of movement. But whether or not it is fixed, doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't be used because we know, or have decided after debate, that it is unrealistic.

But I believe that with this style of play we have seen the weakness of the engine.

True.

Josan "the unrealistic gamer"

That's good!

Originally posted by Chimera:
You guys sound like bonds, what with ratings and all Is it just me, or does Colin seem to enjoy widespread adulation/groupie followings in ArtofWar?

Yep, he has a strong group of acolytes that cheer him on. ArtWar is dominated by conservatives, probably all of the wargaming community is dominated that way.

BTW Ed, sounds like you had a few little altercations with Mr Wright in the past eh?

Yep. I caught him making a mistake, and said in low key way ("BTW Colin...")that he missed this, but instead he attacked me, rather than admit he missed a point. I've seen him do that ever since, he'll argue you to death rather than admit to messing up. I couldn't come close to competing, I can't afford spending 4 hours a day just on arguments in the ArtWar forum. And this was before I was aware of his other nastier tendancies....

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

I understand that. I now understand Lorenzo feels the same way. The problem was that Lorenzo initially talked about counter measures the
Soviets could use to defend against the tactic, which implied to me he saw nothing unrealistic about it, and that was my problem because I
felt it to be grossly unrealistic.

No that was me and I demand I be given proper credit. In fact, I have come up with a Soviet counter strategy. Send me you're credit card number and I will tell you my secret.

Originally posted by Don Shafer:

No that was me and I demand I be given proper credit.

It was both of you actually, you starting on the 1st page and Lorenzo starting on the 2nd page of the "1942 and the Caucases" thread.

In fact, I have come up with a Soviet counter strategy. Send me you're credit card number and I will tell you my secret.

Will you take C.O.D.?

I think I might have a cheaper solution, it depends on how far away your opponent is. When you see your opponent's panzer corps (3+ divisions) wandering around behind your lines, call'em up and tell him to cut the crap or the game is over. Better yet, call him collect! How's that?