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Here's a way Arnaud could solve the Crimea issue: I don't know how hard it would be to implement, I can't program for shit.

Make the special supply hexes work like railheads, ie supply decreases 1 step per hex away from the special supply hex. This would make a defense of the Crimea possible (and keep any units pocketed with Odessa in some supply).

I think this is a good idea, and I think implementing it shouldn't be too difficult.. let's hope it will be done someday <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Yogi Yohan:
Here's a way Arnaud could solve the Crimea issue: I don't know how hard it would be to implement, I can't program for shit.

Make the special supply hexes work like railheads, ie supply decreases 1 step per hex away from the special supply hex. This would make a defense of the Crimea possible (and keep any units pocketed with Odessa in some supply).

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No, this won't solve the real problem with Crimea, and I'm not sure this idea makes sense for the Crimean peninsula either.

We know the belligerents didn't have much of a navy in the Black Sea, including military transports and cargo transports, to sustain multiple armies on the Crimean peninsula through Sevastopol and sea supply, although the Soviets had the larger naval force in the Black Sea. The Soviets did land forces in the Crimea from naval craft, but the main forces involved in the Crimea campaigns were supplied not by sealift, but from supply brought over the Kerch Straits. Enhancing the naval supply rules as you suggest doesn't really fit the Black Sea/Crimean Peninsula situation, although it might make some sense in the Baltic where the entire German Navy dominated that sea, and large scale invasions with large scale supply operations may have been possible, I'm not sure.

The REAL problem is WiR has failed to show the connection across the Kerch Straits, when 2 strategy games I know of allow supply to be traced over the Kerch Straits (A3R and WiF). There wasn't a literal railroad bridge, but the distances between the 2 rail heads was short enough to sustain large amounts of supply in either direction, similar to the connection between Italy and Sicily that is recognized in most games.

The main problem is that since supply can't cross the Kerch Straits there is no good reason to bother with the Crimean Peninsula at all. In WiR there is only one thing that can be done, and that is to draw a rail line across those Straits. It wouldn't be literally true, but it would make the Crimean something both sides would now have to deal with, and make things more interesting down there.

I'm not sure if this has been talked about before, I think it has, maybe RickyB knows more.

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:



No, this won't solve the real problem with Crimea, and I'm not sure this idea makes sense for the Crimean peninsula either.

We know the belligerents didn't have much of a navy in the Black Sea, including military transports and cargo transports, to sustain multiple armies on the Crimean peninsula through Sevastopol and sea supply, although the Soviets had the larger naval force in the Black Sea. The Soviets did land forces in the Crimea from naval craft, but the main forces involved in the Crimea campaigns were supplied not by sealift, but from supply brought over the Kerch Straits. Enhancing the naval supply rules as you suggest doesn't really fit the Black Sea/Crimean Peninsula situation, although it might make some sense in the Baltic where the entire German Navy dominated that sea, and large scale invasions with large scale supply operations may have been possible, I'm not sure.

The REAL problem is WiR has failed to show the connection across the Kerch Straits, when 2 strategy games I know of allow supply to be traced over the Kerch Straits (A3R and WiF). There wasn't a literal railroad bridge, but the distances between the 2 rail heads was short enough to sustain large amounts of supply in either direction, similar to the connection between Italy and Sicily that is recognized in most games.

The main problem is that since supply can't cross the Kerch Straits there is no good reason to bother with the Crimean Peninsula at all. In WiR there is only one thing that can be done, and that is to draw a rail line across those Straits. It wouldn't be literally true, but it would make the Crimean something both sides would now have to deal with, and make things more interesting down there.

I'm not sure if this has been talked about before, I think it has, maybe RickyB knows more.

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OK, I yield, lets connect the rail heads over the straits of Kerch. It would not be the first time imaginary railroads are built in WIR to represent alternative supply routes (I myself put one in Finland in my map).

Ed, besides, after reading through Beavors book on Stalingrad, I will have to give you right in our debate regarding Hitler as a military commander - the man was if not a complete fool, then next to it. Even when he made the right decisions it was apparently for the wrong reasons... (thinking winter 1941).

Hello Yogi!
Crimea problem can be easily fixed if one removes swamp hex from Taman penisula and places railroad instead. I did not study this map question thoroughly, but this change will make almost all Crimea supplied more or less from Taman.

If one connects Crimea with Taman by railroad, it will make possible to launch attacks from this penissula, which would be impossible in real situation.

Originally posted by Yogi Yohan:
OK, I yield,

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No need to, this isn't a contest.

(I myself put one in Finland in my map).

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Finland in WiR has always bothered me, but now I'm not so sure there is a problem with the rail layout. After looking at the rail lines in the World in Flames demo, the rail lines shown in WiR are similar. The Finnish rail lines do not connect with the Soviet rail line heading to Murmansk. In fact, the closest they get to one another is at Murmansk. Of course, the absence of most of Finland and Northwest USSR means the fight to keep Murmansk open, and its rail line to the rest of the USSR uncut, can't be seen or duplicated in WiR.

Besides, I've always wondered if not being allowed to actually build rail lines in WiR is a flaw of sorts.

hum after looking at Europa map ( <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> ) FITE, I could sa that there is definitly a railroad between the 2 country , in fact there is 2 , but none of them where completed at the start of the war. So has WiR and WiF dont allow for RR construction ( and Europa only allow it in special rule ), that is far more realistic to simply dont show it.
Even if Kalamshka RR could be really important in the game and quick to finish ( especially for a german blockade of Murmansk ) the finish railroad transport capacity is blatantly too low to permit corps operation , other than supply. The russian have the capacity to use it fully ... but when they own this one they probably dont have to care anymore about anykind of exis presence in North Finland...

I never claimed there was such a railroad but...

The Finnish forces did reach the Svir river during the continuation war and stayed there for several years. Obviously, the forces on the Svir were resupplied somehow. A railroad is the only way to do it in WIR. Leaving it as it is makes a historic development impossible, which is why I connected the Finnihs railway with the Murmansk railroad.

You can download the map and updated scenarios at: http://w1.183.telia.com/~u18312391/wir/wir.htm

Originally posted by Yogi Yohan:
The Finnish forces did reach the Svir river during the continuation war and stayed there for several years. Obviously, the forces on the Svir were resupplied somehow. A railroad is the only way to do it in WIR. Leaving it as it is makes a historic development impossible, which is why I connected the Finnihs railway with the Murmansk railroad.

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True, the game isn't flexible when it comes to supply. There was a decent amount of German and Finnish light divisions in the north, fighting for the borderlands and Murmansk. I think the real problem is we can't *build* rail lines in WiR.