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Rail Line through Demjansk
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2001 4:07 pm
by Harry
I have read about the Demjansk-pocket and I didn't hear about a rail line in or very close to it.
This made me look at some maps in history books. There I found no rail-line
through or in the vicinity of Demjansk, but I have only one map with showing rail lines.
The rail-line I found instead runs Velikie Luki - Toropec - Ostaskov - Bologoe.
The line starts in Velikie Luki and runs a short time nearly parallel to the line V.Luki- Rezev. Then it turns to NE going through Ostaskov and ends in Bologoe. We should remove the rail line that runs west-east through Demjansk, and add my suggestions.
I have created a map, but I cannot insert pictures here. If someone want to see it, please send me an e-mail.
The other suggestion is a slight correction of the rail line runnig from
Moscow to Leningrad. This line goes pretty strait from Moscow to Leningrad.
Maybe someone around here has maps with showing rail lines of that time to add other sources that can proof my suggested changes with the Demjansk rail.
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2001 5:20 pm
by Muzrub
What you are saying would change the game in the north- at least Moscow area quite a bit.
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2001 8:10 pm
by Harry
I'm aware of this. That's why I want to find others who can support this.
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2001 9:33 pm
by RickyB
Originally posted by Harry:
I have read about the Demjansk-pocket and I didn't hear about a rail line in or very close to it.
This made me look at some maps in history books. There I found no rail-line
through or in the vicinity of Demjansk, but I have only one map with showing rail lines.
The rail-line I found instead runs Velikie Luki - Toropec - Ostaskov - Bologoe.
The line starts in Velikie Luki and runs a short time nearly parallel to the line V.Luki- Rezev. Then it turns to NE going through Ostaskov and ends in Bologoe. We should remove the rail line that runs west-east through Demjansk, and add my suggestions.
I have created a map, but I cannot insert pictures here. If someone want to see it, please send me an e-mail.
The other suggestion is a slight correction of the rail line runnig from
Moscow to Leningrad. This line goes pretty strait from Moscow to Leningrad.
Maybe someone around here has maps with showing rail lines of that time to add other sources that can proof my suggested changes with the Demjansk rail.
Mist is the map expert, with WW2 era maps from Russian sources that show everything, or close to it. This line shows on his map and the old map, so I would bet it was there. I have one source, the Fire in the East game from GDW, that shows either a major road or a minor railway running through the area. As I doubt there would have been a quality road, I would tend toward it being a low grade railway. Anyway, Mist probably has definite information.
Also, there are many missing rails on the map, for a variety of reasons. Mainly many weren't used for supply movement, so it doesn't make sense to put them on. However, there is also an issue with the terrain being replaced by clear terrain and a rail when a rail line is put in. In this case it requires judgement as to which to put on, to balance usage versus terrain to fight over. This is why, even though some say if a rail line existed, add it, that can't be done either. Some areas would be all rails.
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2001 7:38 pm
by Mist
Originally posted by Harry:
I have read about the Demjansk-pocket and I didn't hear about a rail line in or very close to it.
actualy there were much more rail lines almost everywhere than is represented in current WiR map. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> Demyansk area is also not exclusion. I have a piece of map showing Demyansk operations 7 January - 20 May '42. Problem is that there are too many rail lines to represent them in WiR map scale with WiR map limitations(ie rail line is also clear hex, it also takes place of 20 miles hex)
This made me look at some maps in history books. There I found no rail-line
through or in the vicinity of Demjansk, but I have only one map with showing rail lines.
The rail-line I found instead runs Velikie Luki - Toropec - Ostaskov - Bologoe.
The line starts in Velikie Luki and runs a short time nearly parallel to the line V.Luki- Rezev. Then it turns to NE going through Ostaskov and ends in Bologoe.
you are absolutely right. There was such rail line also. And I am... well was thinking about adding it to the map.
We should remove the rail line that runs west-east through Demjansk, and add my suggestions.
I have created a map, but I cannot insert pictures here. If someone want to see it, please send me an e-mail.
I, personaly, doubt that we should remove this rail line. But if you(or someone of forumers) think that
adding rail line you've described above is important, tell me and we will discuss it in testers group.
The other suggestion is a slight correction of the rail line runnig from
Moscow to Leningrad. This line goes pretty strait from Moscow to Leningrad.
I agree. There are two rail lines going too near to each other. Leningrad-Moscow and Leningrad-Vologda. This gives players unhistorical(imho) opportunities of cutting one rail line while being supplied from other through *very swampy* region.
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2001 7:53 pm
by Mist
Originally posted by RickyB:
Mist is the map expert, with WW2 era maps from Russian sources that show everything, or close to it. This line shows on his map and the old map, so I would bet it was there. I have one source, the Fire in the East game from GDW, that shows either a major road or a minor railway running through the area. As I doubt there would have been a quality road, I would tend toward it being a low grade railway. Anyway, Mist probably has definite information.
rail line was going a bit north from Demyansk(approx 30 km north to be correct). Straight east from Staraya Russa through Lychkovo.
Also, there are many missing rails on the map, for a variety of reasons. Mainly many weren't used for supply movement, so it doesn't make sense to put them on. However, there is also an issue with the terrain being replaced by clear terrain and a rail when a rail line is put in. In this case it requires judgement as to which to put on, to balance usage versus terrain to fight over. This is why, even though some say if a rail line existed, add it, that can't be done either. Some areas would be all rails.
I can add another rail line with no problem doing it Ricky if noone will argue against high density of rail lines around Velikiye Luki. This will change the game as Muzrub said. But again problem will go away as soon as game will be more balanced and Red Army will be more than set shattering icons in summer'41.
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2001 3:45 am
by Possum
Hello Mist, My maps show this too.
A question.
Is it possible to make the OBWIR file update the presence and damage status of railway lines?
It's just that I've added and altered many railway lines on my custom map to closer represent the 1941 rail network depicted in my railway encyclopedia. Unfortunately, I dare noT correct the railway lines that are within 8 weeks move of the German Panzer Korps, for fear of peanalizing the Soviets even more.
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:11 am
by Mist
Originally posted by Possum:
Hello Mist, My maps show this too.
A question.
Is it possible to make the OBWIR file update the presence and damage status of railway lines?
All you need is to create new obwir.md file which will accompany your custom map. When I do this with my maps I do the following: load scenario with "Edit Scenario" option in WiR. Do "Set Map" from Utils menu. Save. Then rename newly created scen?.md file to let's say obwir.md. Voila. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Ask me if you'll have problems.
It's just that I've added and altered many railway lines on my custom map to closer represent the 1941 rail network depicted in my railway encyclopedia. Unfortunately, I dare noT correct the railway lines that are within 8 weeks move of the German Panzer Korps, for fear of peanalizing the Soviets even more.
I did my own custom map also after browsing through dozens of maps. It is very interesting work. Though current map is almost good, inspite of there still are wrong things. For example river flowing around south edge of Leningrad actualy was flowing through Leningrad. Mountain hex between Demyansk and Rzhev is strange thing to me, though it is presented in many wargames, but I live not far from there and don't know any MOUNTAINS there <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> .. etc. Taking into account very limited possibilities of map editing and given map scale, there will always be things that will look like wrong ones at least for someone.
[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]</p>
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2001 3:45 pm
by Harry
Maybe we should ask why someone added a rail-line to a map drawing regarding the importance of it:
Is it because it is a double track?
Is it because the rail line is on a railroad embamkment (single/double tracked)?
Is it a rail line in very good shape (single track)?
Is it a rail line in bad shape (single track)?
...
Maybe Mist you have better material to distinguish what rail lines were in which condition.
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2001 7:12 pm
by Mist
Originally posted by Harry:
Maybe we should ask why someone added a rail-line to a map drawing regarding the importance of it:
Is it because it is a double track?
Is it because the rail line is on a railroad embamkment (single/double tracked)?
Is it a rail line in very good shape (single track)?
Is it a rail line in bad shape (single track)?
...
may be. Who are you going to ask about this?
Maybe Mist you have better material to distinguish what rail lines were in which condition.
unfortunately I have very little info on railroad condition. More than this, each railroad had different condition from time to time. I assume that if railroad was shown on a combat maps which scale is approximately equal to WiR map scale, then this railroad should be placed on WiR map if it fits into known map limitations and common sence. Europe must be all rails as far as I understand.
And you? Do you have such info about railroad condition? I would be happy to look at it.
Do you feel that current WiR map is seriously wrong somewhere and this can be fixed?
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2001 9:23 pm
by Harry
No, don't have such info. Well it would be very nice to have them. But I fear that such info could be only gathered through some scientific research.
Are there someone who wants to make a doktor in history ? <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
The only map I have with rail is a prepared one showing movement on the east front in the north.
Not very useful to scale it to WIR dimensions. It do not show eg. the Demjansk rail. But different rail lines are shown that are not on the WIR map.
I don't think that there are serious faults in the WIR map, as far as I know. The Demjansk issue is completed for me because I see that there are other sources that show rail there.
A simpification WIR does, is that always everywhere the supply base has a constant value of 6. Therefore it is dangerous to add/delete a railline to the map. If we would have a "fixed" pool of supplypoints that get distributed over the supplynet, then adding/deleting would have had not so much impact. Then we would still have the problem with the terrain. If it would be possible to stack some "terraintypes" then this would be solved too.
Well I'm talking of a future WIR. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2001 5:34 pm
by Harry
Lots of old maps here, to old I fear. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~feefhs/maps/indexmap.html
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2001 10:00 am
by Muzrub
It just so happens I picked up a map book today- for $20 very cheap and very detailed.
It also contains many rail roads that do no exist in the game.
The rail near demyansk wich according to this book goes from St Russa- Valdai-Bologoe through to Rybinsk.
Demyansk seems to be near Valdai- not directly on the railway.
There are also raillinks that run from Rzhev-Tarzhok (which links to the one running from moscow to Leningrad) back to Velikiye in a triangle.
As well as from Pskov to Luga- Leningrad. Thats the open wooded area between the two railroads that lead to leningrad between Lake-Peipus and Lake IImen. The luga rail head also runs to Novgorod.
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2001 10:44 am
by Mist
Originally posted by Muzrub:
It just so happens I picked up a map book today- for $20 very cheap and very detailed.
is this a warmap book relating to WWII period?
I ask because many railroads were built after this war.
I also have access to the extremely detailed rail maps, but they show modern railroad state. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:37 am
by Muzrub
Yeah-
They are copies of the original maps for both the Western- East and North Africa.
Yugoslavia- Bulgaria- Italy- sicily and RAF maps- German air defences western Europe and Atlantic maps.
Plus detailed maps of D-day defences- crimea- Greece- calais defences.
It has a fair bit of info- I'd like more- but I have not see a book as good as this.
It does not tell you whether thay are double tracked or that- but it does give very clear approx'tes of were the Rail lines are. Good enough to check the entire game map.
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2001 12:15 pm
by Muzrub
You maybe able to obtain the maps yourself.
null
Then type in the reference number: WO 208/1798
This will enable you to purchase:
Operational situation maps: Leningrad, Stalingrad, Northern Caucasus, South and North Russia
1942 Nov.-1945 Aug
for 10 pounds.
I hope this helps- if you get a copies send a few over here- I dare say they would contain alot more images than I have.
Muzrub.