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What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:47 pm
by Sandrik
Question, just what is a sucessful scenario? I've been hit by a few folks (E-mail) because my Israel's WoT 2006 is ahistorical. Well yes it is and I designed it to be that way. I designed the scenario for folks to explore the possibilities and to consider the limitations the IDF/IAF are under in Lebanon/Syria and with regard to mobilization. To me what is the sense in playing a scenario which is so constraned as to force the players into the historical decisions and events (If they had control over them). It's like that Command Decision TV show that was on and I stopped watching, because in every episode the decision made by the actual commanders was "The correct decision."
So I leave the open question to you all, what is a sucessful scenario?
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:57 pm
by golden delicious
"Successful" implies an achievement of goals set down beforehand. So if the scenario does what you want it to (answers the question "what if", gets lots of players, crashes your computer) it's successful.
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:00 pm
by Sandrik
"...crashes your computer?"
Is there an inside joke here that I'm missing?
Al
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:41 pm
by sstevens06
Historical accuracy - in both OOB/TO&E as well as ability to re-create historical outcome.
Problem with current criticism of your "Israel's WoT 2006" scenario is that the detailed historical outcome is not yet known. If past Arab-Israeli wars are any indication, historically faithful accounts about this one won't come out for years, if ever.
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:31 pm
by golden delicious
ORIGINAL: Sandrik
"...crashes your computer?"
Is there an inside joke here that I'm missing?
If that was your objective, and the scenario does that, then it is indeed a successful scenario.
My point was that there is no single answer. It depends entirely on why you designed the scenario in the first place. Scenario design is a hobby, not a commercial enterprise nor a political exercise. So its success depends on the satisfaction you get from it.
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:03 pm
by *Lava*
ORIGINAL: Sandrik
So I leave the open question to you all, what is a sucessful scenario?
That's easy...
One that is fun to play.
Ray (alias Lava)
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:15 pm
by rhinobones
ORIGINAL: Historical accuracy - in both OOB/TO&E as well as ability to re-create historical outcome.
This is much too narrow of a definition for success. Think I like Lava’s definition much better.
Regards, RhinoBones
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:24 pm
by Silvanski
If I would make a scenario and get one (1) positive reaction I'd consider it a succes [:D]
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:36 pm
by Fidel_Helms
ORIGINAL: Sandrik
Question, just what is a sucessful scenario? I've been hit by a few folks (E-mail) because my Israel's WoT 2006 is ahistorical. Well yes it is and I designed it to be that way.
Given that the conflict is ongoing, it can't help but be ahistorical, can it?
As Ben notes, different strokes for different folks. I think you must bear in mind that this is a subject which inspires no small amount of polemic, and thus people's opinions of what is "historical" and/or "realistic" will vary greatly. Some people are going to want their Israeli supermen, and some are going to want every Hezbollah guerilla to be a ninja.
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:55 pm
by sstevens06
ORIGINAL: rhinobones
ORIGINAL: Historical accuracy - in both OOB/TO&E as well as ability to re-create historical outcome.
This is much too narrow of a definition for success. Think I like Lava’s definition much better.
Regards, RhinoBones
These are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:05 am
by Fidel_Helms
ORIGINAL: sstevens06
ORIGINAL: rhinobones
ORIGINAL: Historical accuracy - in both OOB/TO&E as well as ability to re-create historical outcome.
This is much too narrow of a definition for success. Think I like Lava’s definition much better.
Regards, RhinoBones
These are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
Absolutely, although I tend more towards your point of view(as expressed earlier). The main appeal of TOAW(or most any wargame) is the ability to recreate an historical campaign. If you're just looking for a fun game or a purely competitive exercise, there are thousands of better choices than TOAW, like German board games or chess(both of which can be played online).
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:40 am
by Captain Cruft
I suspect that from most designers' viewpoint getting any feedback whatsoever on their scenarios would be considered a success. It is truly amazing to me that so much work is done in an almost complete vacuum.
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:47 am
by *Lava*
ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft
I suspect that from most designers' viewpoint getting any feedback whatsoever on their scenarios would be considered a success. It is truly amazing to me that so much work is done in an almost complete vacuum.
Indeed,
A very insightful observation.
Ray (alias Lava)
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:48 pm
by Sandrik
Well thanks for your insights. I do try to ensure the historical ooutcome can be reached in any scenario I design, but I also like to (prefer to) explore the what ifs. In Chinese Farm '73 I tried to allow for the IDF turning north instread of south or seizing the crossing near Ismailia. In "On the Banks of the Suez" (which was trashed by some when I desigened it for COAW) I tried to allow the Egyptians great latitude in whether to stay under the SAM Umbrella or stike out for the passes, and the IDF great latitude in whether to eliminate the Egyptians from the East Bank or cross the canal as was done historically. In Yom Kippur: Golan Heights, I wanted the IDF the option of counterattacking in the northern Golan or counterattacking in the south. I could go on and on but to me the wargame shoud make you think and want to explore, not just what did happen but what could have. In fact I've been thinking of Patton's Alternative for the Ardennes, were the Americans and Brits drop back to the Meuse in a fighting withdraw (but no major stand up actions at St. Vith or Bastogne) and then drive up Skyline drive & south from the Rohr Area to trap the Germans in a huge Kessel/Cannae.
Al
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:01 pm
by TOCarroll
I am a big fan of "playability" as a criteria for success, but one should also consider the fact that scenarios like yours allow player's to see various possible outcomes. Indeed, your scenario gave me a much better idea of what a cluster f*** the whole situation is. (Perhaps "quaqmire" would be a more polite adjective).
I also give scenarios like FITE and DNO big points for illustrating how many damn Russians the Germans had to go through to win (or lose). Like an elephant (Germany) attacking zillions of army ants (not my metaphor, came from the Wgermacht GS). (The scenarios) Also give you a good picture of the hugeness of the country and poor communicatins.
So, lots of ways to suceed. Just finishing a working design should be considered a sucess, as much work as is involved.[:D]
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:30 pm
by sstevens06
ORIGINAL: TOCarroll
...
Just finishing a working design should be considered a sucess, as much work as is involved.[:D]
Amen to that!
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:38 pm
by bluermonkey
ORIGINAL: sstevens06
ORIGINAL: TOCarroll
...
Just finishing a working design should be considered a sucess, as much work as is involved.[:D]
Amen to that!
'Tis true!
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:59 pm
by rhinobones
ORIGINAL: If you're just looking for a fun game or a purely competitive exercise, there are thousands of better choices than TOAW, like German board games or chess(both of which can be played online).
Why are these choices better than TOAW? I thoroughly enjoy playing a fun game of PBM TOAW . . . guess I misunderstood the purpose of TOAW. Not for fun eh! Bummer.
Regards RhinoBones
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:31 pm
by golden delicious
ORIGINAL: rhinobones
Why are these choices better than TOAW? I thoroughly enjoy playing a fun game of PBM TOAW . . . guess I misunderstood the purpose of TOAW. Not for fun eh! Bummer.
Well, it depends on your definition of fun. Do you find a good museum fun?
RE: What is a sucessful scenario?
Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:24 am
by rhinobones
ORIGINAL: golden delicious
Well, it depends on your definition of fun. Do you find a good museum fun?
I’m not buying this as a legitimate response. Definition of fun? I provided a definition of fun as it relates to TOAW PBM gamming. And what do museums have to do with any of this? Nonsense!
Really, when it comes down to playing TOAW for fun, does this answer have anything to do with my question about why the choices given by Fidel are better than TOAW? Come on, you’re supposed to be educated. This response is as useless as the quip you provided to the original posting. I know you could do better if you only tried a little bit.
Or, are you attempting to say that there is no fun in TOAW? That TOAW should only be attempted by serious minded people who are qualified to key punch the most accurate of TO&Es? Recreational fun players are not allowed in the club.
Either way, the response makes no sense at all. Please try again.
As for the museum, yes I do find them to be fun. Also find them relaxing, stimulating and educational. If you go with the right person, any museum with dark corners can be a whole lot of fun. I remember one time I took a nice young lady to the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago. Must have been somewhere between the agricultural exhibit and anthropology when she suddenly . . .
Regards, RhinoBones