Kyushu J7W "Shinden"

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: PzB

Don't forget that I hired Albert 'Tojo' Speer to optimize my armaments industry Mike [:D]

The production numbers in this game could be reduced _severly_ if you reduced A2A lethality.
I would have been happy not having to re-equipp and train every single Daitai over again after a single engagements..*grumble*

"Alburtu Speeroku" eh? I've thought about that myself. Problem is even Speer had to have something to work with. And when the Zaibatsu (sic) forced some "rationalization" on the IJN and IJA in 1943 they pretty much accomplished anything Speer could have done. Successfully, as the difference between 1942 and 1944 production levels will attest. But the basic Japanese economic base was simply too small and too narrow. Too many parts of it (like the machine tools sector and the electronics sector for example) just couldn't keep up with the increasing demand. And there simply weren't enough skilled workers/technicians to go around. The US beat this by turning out virtually all war material on "assembly lines" in plants built or completely remodled for that purpose. The Japanese lacked the skill, tradition, management expertise and industrial base to go this route.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: spence

I've noticed in at least 1 AAR (which I guess is in 45 sometime) the Japanese Player is salivating over the beginning of production (or maybe deployment) of this aircraft. It has nice stats for sure. But with probably less than 10 hours total flying time IRL (between the Japanese and the US) it would seem there ought to be a real downside possible to rushing research and so forth. These kind of "wunderwaffen" sometimes worked and sometimes didn't. I think the Japanese should be able to invest in all their scientists' wet dreams but after spending 60 billion supply pts find out that they've come up with a really cool looking Nate (forgot its number).

Though the probabilities should be weighted towards producing a Nate there should be a very small chance of producing an F16 sorta thing - just so the Japanese Player doesn't know what he's gonna get til he's spent all the capital (supply).

Another factor that played into most of these late war wonder weapons was reliability. The database should have a reliability field and planes like this one should have very low reliability. In an operational Chutai, only 1 or 2 planes would likely be operational at any time. That would cool people's enthusiasm for these planes and make their effectiveness in the game realistic.

In Europe, the Ar-234, He-162, Me-163, and Me-262 were wonder weapons, which all saw service, but the 1st generation jet engines had very poor service lives and had a nasty habit of flaming out unexpectedly. The Me-262 was probably the most reliable of the lot, and there were probably less than 20 flaying in all of Germany on any given day.

Bill

[PzB74]

I agree to that Mike, but it should be possible to re-tool factories instead of creating new ones!
If A6M8 production was halted in early 45 to prepare for production of the Reppu, it wouldn't require more skilled
labour.

Do you know if Jap women worked in munition factories and when 24/7 shifts were introducted in Japan?
Germany didn't gear for 'Total War' until 1944 - when the war was already lost.

Wdolson; reliability is always a problem in new models but WitP doesn't have this feature. A lower repair rate
slowly increasing from 20/100 towards 100/100 of full repair capacity over, e.g. 3-4 months would be realistic.

Still, you're not far from the truth:

"It was only during March and April 45 that German jets were encountered by Allied bombers in some numbers. During the largest jet operation, on 10 Apr, 55 jet sorties were flown against 1 000 US bombers and fighters, 10 bombers were destroyed at 27 own losses (all from JG 7, half its strength). That very day, the 8th AF launched relay raids on all known Me 262 airfields in northern Germany. Parchim, Oranienburg, Briest, Rechlin and Burg were badly damaged. A short time later, all the Me 262 units that were still intact, were ordered to transfer to southern Germany and Czechoslovakia.

By the end of the war, the Me 262s had accounted for 150 enemy aircraft destroyed (50 of these by JV 44), 100 jets were lost in the process. Despite being years ahead of its time, the Me 262 came too late to save Germany. There were far to few aircraft to make any difference and in an environment of Allied air supremacy the jets were extremely vulnerable during takeoff and landing."

Still, conditions in Japan in mid 45 is better in my game than they were in Germany in mid 45.
Everything is therefore relative....

Have you seen this; Me-262 taking of from Berlin in 2006! [&o]
Me-262 Flies again!

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: PzB

Don't forget that I hired Albert 'Tojo' Speer to optimize my armaments industry Mike [:D]

The production numbers in this game could be reduced _severly_ if you reduced A2A lethality.
I would have been happy not having to re-equipp and train every single Daitai over again after a single engagements..*grumble*

If you look at the history, that's what Japan was having to do in the last 2 years of the war. The Battle of the Philippine Sea (Marianas Turkey Shoot) was the first of a few blood baths. Before the invasion of Leyte, Halsey took TF 38 on a tour of Japanese held bases that could support forces in the Philippines. The Japanese had three plans depending on where the next US invasion was going to be. They figured it was either going to be the Philippines, Okinawa, or Formosa and they made battle plans for each. The first stage of this battle would be to rush aircraft into the target area, then the IJN forces would converge in varients of what happened in the Battle of Leyte Gulf, though the original plan had Ozawa's carriers fully equipped with air groups.

When Halsey did a raid on Formosa, somebody in the Home Islands thought that an invasion of Formosa was imminent and sent every available plane there, including most of Ozawa's carrier planes. The losses there were as bad as the Marianas Turkey Shoot. When the invasion did come at Leyte, Ozawa only had about 100 carrier aircraft, and the land based air in the Philippines was much weaker than the original plan called for because so many had been lost a couple of months before at Formosa.

When large air battles did happen in the Pacific, they were not as common as in WitP, but the real world results were pretty close to what happens in WitP.

Bill

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: PzB
"It was only during March and April 45 that German jets were encountered by Allied bombers in some numbers. During the largest jet operation, on 10 Apr, 55 jet sorties were flown against 1 000 US bombers and fighters, 10 bombers were destroyed at 27 own losses (all from JG 7, half its strength). That very day, the 8th AF launched relay raids on all known Me 262 airfields in northern Germany. Parchim, Oranienburg, Briest, Rechlin and Burg were badly damaged. A short time later, all the Me 262 units that were still intact, were ordered to transfer to southern Germany and Czechoslovakia.

Forgot about that one day where they were able to get so many aircraft airborne. I even have a book about it.

To have a vastly superior fighter, in which you can only get 55 airborne on your best day, and you lose half of them isn't very good numbers. The Me-262 was a potent weapon when it got off the ground, but it was more useful for it's ability to scare the Allies than actual combat efficiency. The Allies tied up a lot of fighters for covering Me-262 bases because of that fear. those fighters could have been doing something else if the 262 was not considered such a threat.

Bill

[Vetamur]

In my opinion, all the talk about when it could have been REALLY put into production etc is difficult because there are too many variables.
 
For example, in PZB's game.. he got the Reppu much much earlier than would have been achieved in the war.. BUT Japan is in much much better shape.  There hasnt been massive bombing yet of Japan, particular its aircraft and engine factories, and natural resources werent cut as early, etc.  If Japan's economy is in better shape, then clearly its industry should produce better products faster.
 
The other side of that of course is that with the war effort having still been going well in 1943 or even 1944 perhaps unorthodox aircraft like the Shinden wouldnt have had their designs started at all..
 
Spence mentions that new Japanese aircraft should sort of be given a certain chance to succeed or fail, as they wouldnt know whether it would be a world beater or not.  I disagree with two reasons. Late Japanese aircraft do seem on the whole to be good designs..just too little too late.  The other thing is, that if youre going to do that..you should also apply it to the Allies. Reading AARs you see all kinds of Allied players just basically doing NOTHING until they get the F6F, etc later.  Of course in real life they politically couldnt have done this and certainly couldnt have waited for the F6F because unlike players 60 years later they wouldnt know that is would be a world beater and wouldnt know that Japan wouldnt have a new fighter by then anyway just as good...
 
If you wanted to take all this into consideration a whole new production system would be needed..where the player would be in charge of assigning what kind of projects were going on, each having a random chance of success etc and effected by the overall economy. It might be quite fun because players in the game would likely react the same way German and Japan did.. when the war starts going really poorly (for either side) I guess a lot of people would start development of numerous new projects hoping for a "war winner".
 

[Mike Scholl]

I agree to that Mike, but it should be possible to re-tool factories instead of creating new ones!
If A6M8 production was halted in early 45 to prepare for production of the Reppu, it wouldn't require more skilled labour.

There is something to be said for that arguement, but the problem arose in the expansion of the aircraft production labor force from 236,947 in 1941 to 756,256 in 1944. Those additional half million workers came mainly from women, agricultural workers, and the under-aged and over-aged. Not a group likely to provide much "skilled industrial labor".

Do you know if Jap women worked in munition factories and when 24/7 shifts were introducted in Japan? Germany didn't gear for 'Total War' until 1944 - when the war was already lost.

I know women worked in Japanese War Plants from at least mid-1943..., might have figures for "full plant utilization" around somewhere, but can't find it right now. It was certainly by 1944.

Wdolson; reliability is always a problem in new models but WitP doesn't have this feature. A lower repair rate slowly increasing from 20/100 towards 100/100 of full repair capacity over, e.g. 3-4 months would be realistic.

I'd certainly agree with this. Many models went into production while still having teething problems, plus the time needed for the maintainence crews to learn the unique servicing needs of a new A/C

[dtravel]

From what I understand, much of Japanese industry was literally "cottage industry".  Everything was sub-contracted out to the zillionith degree, and much of the actual production work was literally done in the workers' living rooms by hand.  It was ridiculously inefficient and depended on an unbroken transport net to keep all the little bit supplied and move the various sub-sub-subassemblies up the chain.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: dtravel

From what I understand, much of Japanese industry was literally "cottage industry".  Everything was sub-contracted out to the zillionith degree, and much of the actual production work was literally done in the workers' living rooms by hand.  It was ridiculously inefficient and depended on an unbroken transport net to keep all the little bit supplied and move the various sub-sub-subassemblies up the chain.

Absolutely true, and a real problem for Japanese industrial expansion. In the US when the major suppliers needed to "sub-contract" there were thousands of small and medium-sized firms ready to pick up a share of the load. There was even a bit of a "scandal" as the medium-sized subcontractors picked up the lion's share of the contracts and some of the small ones hollared to their Congressmen. But Ford, GM, Westinghouse, DuPont and the rest of the "big boys" were able to win their arguement that only the larger sub-contractors had the size and capability to meet the ever-faster delivery deadlines. The War came first, and Congress and the "little guys" had to "suck it up" and do without.

In Japan, there were the major industrial combines (the Zaibatsu) and nothing but (very) little guys. Instead of one medium-sized subcontractor mass producing identical sub-assemblies, you had hundreds of converted garages and shops literally hand-making sub-assemblies. Raw materials supply, transportation, and quality control became a nightmare, and tons of parts had to be rejected at the final assembly phase. It was terribly inefficient and wasteful.

[TheElf]

Ever hear of Burt Rutan...?

ORIGINAL: JReb

It probably would have performed poorly. The captured plane was obviously examined and tested by the Americans and if the technology was worth anything it would have been copied or emulated in some way.

US a/c did not evolve in a "Shinden" manner or style, the plane was dismissed or pprobably received a poor evaluation at the least.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: TheElf
Ever hear of Burt Rutan...?

Of course..., but that's decades of R & D from 1945. In 1945 you're talking "cutting edge" technology. And while the Japanese had some brilliant theorists and designers, their engineering and other developmental strength was lacking. The difference between an "experimental prototype" and a "combat-ready fighter" is pretty substantial.

[pauk]

i think that this ac flown with good pilot would be a real wonder weapon and enemy air offensive against Home Island would be history if Japanese just produced this ac on time and hired him:

























[:D]

[panda124c]

FYI

Pusher A/C were not that uncommon.

http://avia.russian.ee/gallery/j21.html

http://www.theplanpage.com/esp/xp54.htm

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p52.html

http://www.planes-and-tanks.com/HangarC/koolhoven.htm

And I am sure there are others. So this was not as a radical design as one would think.

[bradfordkay]

" Have you seen this; Me-262 taking of from Berlin in 2006!
Me-262 Flies again!"


Yeah, that plane was built here in Washington state. A year or two ago there was a good article in one of the aviation magazines about the project to rebuild a few Me262s. IIRC, they had contracts for about four buyers...

[Miller]

Surely the Shinden was to flimsy to mount 4 x 30mm cannon?

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: dtravel

From what I understand, much of Japanese industry was literally "cottage industry".  Everything was sub-contracted out to the zillionith degree, and much of the actual production work was literally done in the workers' living rooms by hand.  It was ridiculously inefficient and depended on an unbroken transport net to keep all the little bit supplied and move the various sub-sub-subassemblies up the chain.

Absolutely true, and a real problem for Japanese industrial expansion. In the US when the major suppliers needed to "sub-contract" there were thousands of small and medium-sized firms ready to pick up a share of the load. There was even a bit of a "scandal" as the medium-sized subcontractors picked up the lion's share of the contracts and some of the small ones hollared to their Congressmen. But Ford, GM, Westinghouse, DuPont and the rest of the "big boys" were able to win their arguement that only the larger sub-contractors had the size and capability to meet the ever-faster delivery deadlines. The War came first, and Congress and the "little guys" had to "suck it up" and do without.

In Japan, there were the major industrial combines (the Zaibatsu) and nothing but (very) little guys. Instead of one medium-sized subcontractor mass producing identical sub-assemblies, you had hundreds of converted garages and shops literally hand-making sub-assemblies. Raw materials supply, transportation, and quality control became a nightmare, and tons of parts had to be rejected at the final assembly phase. It was terribly inefficient and wasteful.

Manufacturing chains like: one company shapes the metal into cylinders, second company hollows the cylinders out, third company draws metal into tubes, fourth company cuts tubes into casing size, fifth company crimps and shapes casings, sixth company brass plates casings, now they get shipped off to the seventh, eighth, ninth and tenth companies to be loaded, then 11 thru 14 to be fitted in to ammo belts.

Then there is making the weapons. One company cuts wood in to blocks, another shapes it in to stock shapes, a third varnishes it. Rifle barrels follow another chain, the firing actions a third, etc. etc.

You can imagine the possibilities for aircraft manufacture. (Or, maybe not. [X(] )

(I also seem to remember something about problems with the fuses of Japanese grenades. They had to be struck against a hard suface to trigger them and sometimes they detonated immediately when the soldier did so. Since the only hard suface around was usually the soldier's helmet.... [8|])

[Feinder]

I also seem to remember something about problems with the fuses of Japanese grenades. They had to be struck against a hard suface to trigger them and sometimes they detonated immediately when the soldier did so.  Since the only hard suface around was usually the soldier's helmet

 
That's interesting.  And it explains why in "Letters from Iwo Jima-To-Whatever" that they banged the grenades on their helmets before blowing themselves up.
 
Hm.  I was wondering about that (I didn't know if it was some sort of salute or something).
 
-F-

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Manufacturing chains like: one company shapes the metal into cylinders, second company hollows the cylinders out, third company draws metal into tubes, fourth company cuts tubes into casing size, fifth company crimps and shapes casings, sixth company brass plates casings, now they get shipped off to the seventh, eighth, ninth and tenth companies to be loaded, then 11 thru 14 to be fitted in to ammo belts.
[/quote]


In a way it was worse. It was more on the order of 1000 individual little shops each trying to produce finished "super-chargers" or "wheel assemblies". All supposedly "identical" and "ready for installation". Needless to say, "identical" they weren't..., and large numbers had to be totally re-built to be usable at all...., while half the rest were scrapped.

[ctangus]

ORIGINAL: PzB

I agree to that Mike, but it should be possible to re-tool factories instead of creating new ones!

If A6M8 production was halted in early 45 to prepare for production of the Reppu, it wouldn't require more skilled labour.

An easy solution (at least in concept - maybe not in the code) would to be get rid of the auto-upgrades of airplane factories. It would make the Japanese player have to choose between preparing to produce an upcoming model (while using supply) or continuing to produce an existing, though deficient, model. I think it would make aircraft production rates more plausible and more closely resemble what happened IRL.

As it stands right now I can produce several hundred A6M5s a month and then magically I'm producing several hundred A6M8s and then again magically several hundred Reppus. No cost at all for re-tooling. I'll readilly admit I've tried to take advantage of the auto-upgrades of factories in my Japanese games, but it still doesn't seem right.

Take your game PzB - as well as you've played you certainly should be doing far better economically than the Japanese did IRL. I'm sure I'll never do as well. But still, you're producing an ungodly amount of Reppus right now.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: ctangus
As it stands right now I can produce several hundred A6M5s a month and then magically I'm producing several hundred A6M8s and then again magically several hundred Reppus. No cost at all for re-tooling.

Excellent point! The decision to bring the production line to a halt even just to change to a new "model" of the same aircraft was always a major one, as it required a shutdown and retooling and installing new jigs and then trying to get the line back up to it's previous speed. Changing over to an entirely new aircraft design meant retooling and often re-designing the entire production line..., which could take months.

The ultimate example of the reluctance to shut down production was probably the B-29. Rather than dealing with the delay involved, the US actually flew brand new B-29's fresh off the lines in Wichita immediately to an "upgrade center" where they had brand new parts stripped off and replaced with newer equipment, parts, and instraments before being sent overseas. Rediculously wastefull and expensive, but it kept up high output, and the Americans (unlike everyone else) could afford it.