Moving captured build points

[Courtenay]

Germany just collapsed Vichy, which had 23 build points stored. The build points showed up on the French, not the German, production screen, which is clearly wrong. However, MWiF correctly let the Germans use 9 of those build points the turn of collapse (5 cities, 1 factory, 3 ports). The problem was that the Germans wanted to ship the rest of the build points back to Germany. I had expected all of the points to be picked up at the start of the German production step, allowing the Germans to place them after the end of everyone's production step, but Germany was not given the opportunity. Instead, there were 14 build points in various ex-Vichy locations.

Germany should have been allowed to move those build points, right? I'm not missing some rule that fixes them in place?

[paulderynck]

Nothing missed, as long as the hexes remain German-controlled you should have been able to ship them elsewhere.

[Courtenay]

Thank you.

[Orm]

As I read the rules, only 9 of the saved build build points (5 cities, 1 factory, 3 ports) should be collected by Germany. Those collected are the only ones to be allowed to be shipped. The uncollected (14 BPs) should remain where they were saved. In my humble opinion, that is.

So I think MWIF is correct here.

Cut from RAC: 13.6.8 Saving build points
.....
In a later production step, you can remove those build points from the map and add them to your build point
total. You may spend any number saved at your capital. No more than 1 saved build point may be consumed per turn
from each other city, useable factory and port (e.g. you can spend 4 saved build points on production in New York and unlimited in Moscow each turn).
You transport saved build points as you do resources (see 13.6.1) except that may be transported to cities and
ports that are not factories.

[Courtenay]

We agree that Germany can only spend 9 build points this turn.

However, this phrase:

You transport saved build points as you do resources (see 13.6.1) except that may be transported to cities and ports that are not factories.

seems to me to indicate that one can transport saved build points.

[Orm]

We agree that Germany can only spend 9 build points this turn.

However, this phrase:

You transport saved build points as you do resources (see 13.6.1) except that may be transported to cities and ports that are not factories.

seems to me to indicate that one can transport saved build points.

Indeed. However. I read it as the collected build points can be railed to another location for production or to be saved there. If you can not collect them, then you can not rail them. I take the part of railing saved BPs as being railed for production. Germany can not spend those BPs in France so they need to be railed to Germany to be produced for. That is in my humble opinion, of course.

[Centuur]

The rule is clear. You can transport saved build points to other cities. There is no restriction placed on the transport of build points if you capture them. There is a restriction on the use of saved build points for production.

Bug.

[Orm]

We agree that Germany can only spend 9 build points this turn.

However, this phrase:

You transport saved build points as you do resources (see 13.6.1) except that may be transported to cities and ports that are not factories.

seems to me to indicate that one can transport saved build points.

My thought is that if you can not transport the BPs to your home country then you can not use captured BPs. This, of course, I could be wrong about. The rules doesn't specify this, I think. Although my thoughts on this is somewhat supported on the fact that you may only save BPs in your own home country.

[Orm]

The rule is clear. You can transport saved build points to other cities. There is no restriction placed on the transport of build points if you capture them. There is a restriction on the use of saved build points for production.

Bug.

Rule clarification could be needed here. What point is it to put restrictions on how many may be collected if you can rail them all so you can spend them all the turn after.

Not in the rules: I put it to you that no rail network in the world during WWII could rail all those saved BPs in such short amount of time. This even if all other rail traffic was suspended.

[paulderynck]

Well the 2009 FAQ has this to say about that:
Q: You can gain control of other major power's Build Points. What do you need to do to use them?
A: Nothing.

I agree that there's a limit on how many can be spent at certain locations and this is enforced by MWiF. It is possible that the FAQ answer even trumps that limit, but that does not matter to MWiF.

Since the rules state they can be transported like other resources and BPs, one would assume you can at least do that. If you think about it though, the restriction on spending is made pointless by the rule on transport since you transport resources before you build at factories, which means - given enough legal locations - you should be able to spend all saved build points every turn. That is how we've always played it.

As for MWiF, it does support the inability to spend over defined limits but since MWiF had RAW7, the 2008 Errata and the 2009 FAQ as rules resources, I would conclude that they at least should be transportable and call this a bug.

[paulderynck]

With RAW7 I never figured out why there was a limit on spending saved build points but none on spending lend lease build points (which "could" have been saved all in one place before they were lent to their recipient).

It's interesting to see that there's no longer a limit on spending saved build points in CE (a.k.a. RAW8)

[Angeldust2]

RAW8 = WIFCE is in many ways a simplification of WIFFE. A lot of "small" rule changes are just rule omittances, designed to make it "easier" to play the cardboard game, but thereby sacrificing a lot of historical chrome. This is true not only for the limit on spending saved BPs, but also for details as bottomed ship results or gearing limits. Such historical details are just not longer depicted in the game. Luckily in playing MWIF we can still employ such features without being "overstressed" by the burden of managing them, as this is done by the computer for us. In cardboard WIF, counters have no memories, in MWIF the game keeps track of all kind of administrative information in a comfortable way for the players.