Bitching About Matrix

[DBeves]

Along with a lot of other people on this forum I find getting worked up over these issues bizarre.
I think what some people are trying to do is to apply the same principles of customer services to matrix as they would to a multi billion pound services company.
Matrix are a very small bunch of guys providing all of us with wargames we once could only dream about - and that we all have neither the time or skills to produce ourselves. They have every right to do whatever they want to protect the work they produce and if it has a few issues to iron out because of that - well maybe its because they don't have 2,000 people in their R&D / customer services department.
There simply is no argument that on on a time spent playing - enjoyment factor - versus money spent on the product - these wargames represent truly exceptional value for money.
I remember a time for instance - playing Advanced Squad leader - when I used to dream about having a game that I could rapidly set up scenarios from any period and play them out in a realistic and thrilling environment without having to remember pages of rules that made it a chore rather than a pleasure. Now I have all the Combat Mission Games. On a Dollar versus pleasure principle I simply have NEVER spent my hard earned cash on anything that represented greater value for money. Same goes for WITP.
The money I spend on their games is not buying a product - it is an investment in Matrix and Battlefront et al... so that they keep doing what they do and what I cannot. So if something goes a little wrong cause at heart these guys are wargamers rather than tycoons with thousands of staff to back them up - we so oh well and work it out with them to solve it...I simply don't think these guys are in ti to make vast amounts of money - but they have to make some to keep themselves going given the amount of time producing stuff this good takes ... We keep bitching about these silly things - they might think its not worth the trouble ... then where would we be ?
Well done guys ... truly a dream game...don't know how you do it this well...

[vonSchnitter]

Well DB,

I could not agree more. There are two sides to a coin - not counting the rim [:D]

a side) Matrix and the majority of the gang in this forum is most willing to support in any aspect
b side) There is no game or sim out there without issues - and this publisher and forum is in place to make the issues known - to get the real stuff fixed. And you know what - ist is the most helpfful place and the most customer concerned publisher/developer I have encountered - ever.
c the rim) a bunch of guys, who either do not care to groom their pcs a little to keep them usefull, or to accept the fact of a 21st century environment where lame internet connection need a little care and planning as well. And these people tend to launch the most vocal threads any gate. And that IS a shame.

My issue right now is the bickering gang - and the way things are raised by a rather marginal group - badmouthing a realy cool environment, without ever considering issues with their own equipment.

Cheers
vonSchnitter

[SunDevil_MatrixForum]

I wouldn't worry too much, this is a great game, these issues will be fixed and considering that Matrix was answering questions and fixing problems on a Saturday (how many of us like working on a weekend day [:)]) I have the utmost faith. People are only getting mad because they do like the game and want to play it, though they could still be calm about the situation. I am sure that the players who get upset have had in the past a bad experience with another game company and are just reacting to make sure it does not happen with Matrix. It won't and as these people get their problems fixed and become more familiar with the commnuity, the next time they run into an issue I am sure they will be calm. Just my opinion.

[netjam99]

Every game I've ever seen has guys on the forums complaining (even the great games like this one). You just gotta tune em out.

[TF 38]

c the rim) a bunch of guys, who either do not care to groom their pcs a little to keep them usefull, or to accept the fact of a 21st century environment where lame internet connection need a little care and planning as well. And these people tend to launch the most vocal threads any gate. And that IS a shame.

Out of respect to Erik, I will not post the contents of an email exchange between ourselves over the course of the last several days. In a general sense, he detailed some of the technical problems that have rendered their support system partly dysfunctional over the preceding weeks. In particular, the email system that is the lifeline of folks seeking help from Matrix was BROKEN at several key points.

It wasn't just that communication was poor, in some instances there was NO communication at all, customers simply weren't being heard or responded to.

So, I'd encourage you "gentlemen" to put your cookie-cutters away and to try and avail yourself of the FACTS in the matter, as you appear largely emancipated from these. If you don't believe me, kindly contact Erik. If you're not willing do that, then PLEASE SHUT UP. As it is you are just promulgating baseless conjecture that will make it harder for customers to get REAL support for WitP.

TF 38

[Titanwarrior89]

You Hit the Nail one the Head. I agree totally![;)]

[Titanwarrior89]

OOps my thread fell in the wrong area. I agree with you bud![8|]

ORIGINAL: DBeves

Along with a lot of other people on this forum I find getting worked up over these issues bizarre.
I think what some people are trying to do is to apply the same principles of customer services to matrix as they would to a multi billion pound services company.
Matrix are a very small bunch of guys providing all of us with wargames we once could only dream about - and that we all have neither the time or skills to produce ourselves. They have every right to do whatever they want to protect the work they produce and if it has a few issues to iron out because of that - well maybe its because they don't have 2,000 people in their R&D / customer services department.
There simply is no argument that on on a time spent playing - enjoyment factor - versus money spent on the product - these wargames represent truly exceptional value for money.
I remember a time for instance - playing Advanced Squad leader - when I used to dream about having a game that I could rapidly set up scenarios from any period and play them out in a realistic and thrilling environment without having to remember pages of rules that made it a chore rather than a pleasure. Now I have all the Combat Mission Games. On a Dollar versus pleasure principle I simply have NEVER spent my hard earned cash on anything that represented greater value for money. Same goes for WITP.
The money I spend on their games is not buying a product - it is an investment in Matrix and Battlefront et al... so that they keep doing what they do and what I cannot. So if something goes a little wrong cause at heart these guys are wargamers rather than tycoons with thousands of staff to back them up - we so oh well and work it out with them to solve it...I simply don't think these guys are in ti to make vast amounts of money - but they have to make some to keep themselves going given the amount of time producing stuff this good takes ... We keep bitching about these silly things - they might think its not worth the trouble ... then where would we be ?
Well done guys ... truly a dream game...don't know how you do it this well...

[Smiffus64]

Complaining about complainers. I don't understand why you get so worked up about it. Some people have legitimate complaints. It is a minority, but does that mean you can belittle them? I usually treat people the way I want to be treated.

Matrix is a mature company, asking for money for their products. If there are faults with that product, customers have a right to complain. The size of a company or the proffesialism (sp?) is not an issue in this.

What I've seen from Matrix is that they take the complaints seriously and are trying their best to correct mistakes. Kudos. I would not expect less from them.

Let Matrix handle the complaints, they do not need you to do that.

[Erik Rutins]

I understand the good intentions and appreciate the support, but please everyone let's not go down this road again. The forums@matrixgames.com account had broken and we fixed it a few days ago - unfortunately this did cause a lot of grief before it was fixed. With all criticisms, we listen, analyze and fix.

I do appreciate hearing from the normally silent majority, but there are customers with legitimate problems and they are understandably upset. We'd rather hear from them and fix the problem so that our quality of service improves.

Regards,

- Erik

[brisd]

Glad someone else agrees that bitching about people who have complaints is worse that the complainers, who have real issues that Matrix NEEDS to hear about. The game is sound and Matrix's support outstanding. There will always be a-holes on forums. For me, I just add them to my block members list, esp. the holier-than-thou types.

[TheHellPatrol]

In TF 38's defense i must agree...there were some major problems for people out there and after a number of hours of reading i am shocked as to myriad of angry confused posts. In my "little world' everything seemed great...quick DD of patch, it fixed my issues plus gave me even better performance and had no problems whatsoever at the Members area or Forum. vonSchnitter is absolutely correct that "most" of these problems could have been avoided when proper PC maintenance is applied. So...maybe there were some issues Matrix related...here we are already at 1.21[&o], that speaks for itself. TF 38: your response from your fellow posters was due mostly to your angry, rash, childish and unproductive way you decided to seek help[:-]. I'm sure after time people will realize the level of support Matrix gives to their products, as will you, and we can get back to our "kinder and gentler" forum[:D].

[Marc von Martial]

A small analogy from dealing with a multi billion dollar company

- Ordered 420,- EUR piece of hardware 3 weeks ago

- 2 days of hazzles with paying with my "blocked" Mastercard (5 phone calls from a support that barely speaked german allthough sitting in Germany). Within these 2 days I payed 3 other items with the very same card btw.

- Order gets confirmed after 8 days

- Get order tracking link emailed. The link works 1 out of 30 times. The other times it simply says "order not found"

- Call to support to make sure the order is actually processed.

- After three weeks passed and another 150 tries to track the order via the provided link companies support calls and says the order is delayed 3 more weeks

- The same day the customer support called to inform about the delayed order, an email is beeing sent stating that the order has been finalized and is shipped ( [&:] )

- Link is provided to track the shipping of the sent order. Link is not working at all. Can´t track shippment.

- Order has not arrived yet.

Just my little experience with ordering a 420,- EUR Axim X30 from DELL (< -- Big big company).



What I wan´t to say you may ask? Please be a little more easy with us, you all know we adress problems and do our best to get back to you ASAP and fix the issue.

[PeckingFury]

I look at it this way. Witp or any game that I own is not a need, I can function from day to day if something is not working correctly. Eventually all or most of the major bugs get worked out so I seldom see the need to get all worked up about them. Many problems are self inflicted not following install procedures and or not knowing the capabilities of your machine. The way some people go on about issues makes me wonder if they put this much energy into their family or work, its a game and will remain just that forever.

[DBeves]

Final word on my original post.
I do not suggest that matrix should or do not respond to genuine complaints about the game or other things.
I do not suggest that matrix don't fix any and all the genuine problems.
What my orginal post was trying to suggest is that people should maybe not climb out of their prams (as I see someone has done below) over issues they are raising and phrase them in a more constructive - and less dramatic "end of the world" way (especially in the title of their posts - do we really need words of complaint typed in all capitals ? "SHOCKED!!!" ).
It is my experience (and I have definitely done it myself ) that many people visit a game forum before purchasing a game to see what kind of issues are being raised in posts - too many doom laden post titles are all that is needed to put some people off and they don't necessarily read them either.
Anyway ... back to the game ...

[Williamb]

I honestly believe that wargamers are divided into two catagories. And these diverse groups BYTCH whena game diviates from their perceived veiw of the world.

The groups are the Grognards and the Nintendos

The grogs want a historically accurate as possible game with little diviation. They are the people that can cite from memory the exact OOB from the Napoleonic wars through Gulf War.

The nintendos are those games that want to see how many buttons they can press as fast as possible. The want a wargame that simulates the entire second world war that takes only 15 minutes to play.

If you make a game that diviates from other of these course you get the complaints. I am not talking about technical complaints (another subject) but just complaints about the game itself.

I sort of count my self as a demo Grog. Im knowledgible about history yet im not fanatical about diviations from it. A game in its nature is a exersize in the diviation from history.

I will admit Im at times put off by the nintendos. I honestly had an encounter with a young Gen Xer that stated to me "Pearl Harbor ? Isnt that where the Japanese attacked after we bombed Hiroshima with the Atomic bomb ?"

I will say this about Matrix. Im glad to see a wargame company FOR wargamers. I remember a tussle I had with another war game company a few years back. We were on a BBS arguing the merits of adding hordes of tanks to a game. I complaned that out of 15 battlegroups the game had 12 were armors (representing divisions) I pointed out that in historical fact most german divisions were infantry.

The reply I got from the head of marketing was "well our young gamers like tanks and we want to keep them happy as they are the ones with the money"

I said well thats good then they can buy the game I wont be buying. I mena honestly dont call it a war game if your just gonna make a nintendo bastarization of WWII.

[Cmdrcain]

You sure have more patience Then I would have had, I'd have cancelled order and gone elsewhere at point 1 out of 30 thing occured... [:D]

Otoh I don't do companys for a PC, I buy parts and build my own....
I can be sure what is in there is what I wanted in there and that not some other MObo or video card wasn't slipped in... [8D]

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: William Amos

I will admit Im at times put off by the nintendos. I honestly had an encounter with a young Gen Xer that stated to me "Pearl Harbor ? Isnt that where the Japanese attacked after we bombed Hiroshima with the Atomic bomb ?"

[X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(]

My reaction to such would be what in the world kind of education is my tax monies going toward????

Second Reaction is so shudder about where world is headed with people that brainless taking over positions like working in a Nuclear Power Plant or other critical system job wiith such brainless education

[8|][&:][8|][:(]

[SunDevil_MatrixForum]

That sounds like a good user scenario to make . We have b-29's take off from the Phillipines and drop an atomic bomb on hiroshima and then have the japanese attack PH. How many Japanese fan boys would like that? [:D]

[Buck Beach]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I understand the good intentions and appreciate the support, but please everyone let's not go down this road again. The forums@matrixgames.com account had broken and we fixed it a few days ago - unfortunately this did cause a lot of grief before it was fixed. With all criticisms, we listen, analyze and fix.

I do appreciate hearing from the normally silent majority, but there are customers with legitimate problems and they are understandably upset. We'd rather hear from them and fix the problem so that our quality of service improves.

Regards,

- Erik

I am not a grognard (I wish I were) I only play against the AI because I can never be good enough to play real live thinking players (my mind is just to damn slow). Having said that, I am a long time player of war games or maybe I should say I play at war games. I had most of the board game relating to theWWII pacific theater as well as many many other board games. I purchase PacWar the moment it was available and the same with Uncommon Valor and followed with baited breath the release of patches and other GG titles. I also was very excited regarding Pacific Tide although that never game panned out.

And now to the principal thought of this post. WITP is the culmination of all these previous games and IT HAS BEEN DONE. We all cried and cried "when, when, when" (yep me too) "release,release,release". "I want be a Beta tester "Please, please, please". Well folks here we are, we are now the final Beta testers. "But we had to pay $80 for an incomplete games only to be testers". Actually it gives us all a real chance to learn the game while particapating in the process of fine tuning this masterpiece. Is that really so so bad? I don't know about you all but I more than get $80 worth of fun from the hours and hours I spend learning and discovering bugs. Ever see what one baseball game costs for a family nowdays.

I hope we are all here because we love the subject matter. I know that for GG and Matrix people (PAID AND UNPAID) it is a downright love. Time after time Matrix has proven their support and the desire to get things right. Hey these are our fellow gamers.

And now the percieve hoops we have to go through to get the game and their protection scheme. Yes some problems but their is timely support for most and I think, complete support for almost all.

OK Erik, I know this post probably just clutters the board but I thought is was important to be said. I hope that none of you out there is thinking this is just a "rah, rah go Matrix" post. I love this game and think it will only get better and better.

Buck (62 years old)

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: Cmdrcain

You sure have more patience Then I would have had, I'd have cancelled order and gone elsewhere at point 1 out of 30 thing occured... [:D]

Otoh I don't do companys for a PC, I buy parts and build my own....
I can be sure what is in there is what I wanted in there and that not some other MObo or video card wasn't slipped in... [8D]

I do that too, but it´s hard if you want a PDA (Axim X30) [;)]