Nukes

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Jaylord14
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RE: Nukes

Post by Jaylord14 »

quote:

The fact is, the WP had to win in 30 days or the Soviet economy would collapse.


I'm deeply sceptical for the excellent reason that this sort of argument has been proven false before. Prior to the First World War, economists everywhere predicted that a western economy could not operate under the conditions of mass conscription and that as a consequence the war could not have lasted more than a few months.


There's a big difference in the economies of WWI or even Soviet WWII and the 80's. In those earlier times most people lived in rural areas and it required much less transport to keep everybody fed. By the mid 80's I'll bet > 80% of people in the Soviet Union lived in urban areas and were absolutely dependent on those trucks that would be grabbed during mobilization. You probably have never talked to anybody who lived under the Soviet boot heel, but I've talked to plenty. There was such a scarcity of consumer goods, including food, during normal times that any disruption would cause widespread famine within a few weeks. Even western cities only have ~ 1 week of foodstuff on hand in the case of a disaster that it would be a problem for us if something took all the trucks off the road. That's why I tell my wife it's not such a bad thing to hold on to all those old cans of soup she keeps trying to throw away. [:)]
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golden delicious
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RE: Nukes

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Jaylord14

There's a big difference in the economies of WWI or even Soviet WWII and the 80's. In those earlier times most people lived in rural areas and it required much less transport to keep everybody fed.

I would say that by 1941 Russia's population was pretty urbanised. Anyway, grain etc. is moved by rail, not by truck- especially in Russia.
By the mid 80's I'll bet > 80% of people in the Soviet Union lived in urban areas and were absolutely dependent on those trucks that would be grabbed during mobilization. You probably have never talked to anybody who lived under the Soviet boot heel, but I've talked to plenty. There was such a scarcity of consumer goods, including food, during normal times

I'm well aware of this. I wouldn't be surprised if a major reason for this was that the start was hording food for exactly the situation you describe.
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Trick37_MatrixForum
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RE: Nukes

Post by Trick37_MatrixForum »

ORIGINAL: Jaylord14
rue, but the battleships didn't just have the 16" guns. They were fitted with Tomahawk cruise missles and Harpoon anti-ship missiles (two 5" gun mounts on both sides were removed for this), as well as an in-the-aft-well helicopter hanger that could fit 4-8 helicopters and/or Harrier jets. That firepower alone is well worth it. In addition, it had four Phalanx CWIS (Close-in Weapons System) mounts on the ship for anti-missile defense. Although not perfect, they're worth more than their weight in gold. (The UK learned the hard way what they were worth when they turned down an offer to fit their ships with them....before the Falklands War. That changed afterwards, but at an unfortunate cost.)

The 16" guns on the could fire a round 24 nautical miles, or 39 kilometers, thus giving them the power to suppress beach and port defenses without being seen (as we saw during the 1st Gulf War in 1990/1991). As we know the history, these ships, along with the Marines in their assault ships, convinced Iraq that we were planning an amphibious assault as a part of our attack strategy. We also know that wasn't the case, ad that he was caught with his pants down after reinforcing his beaches in response.

Just having those ships in the inventory is something to behold, and to fear.

As far as an Execeet missle hitting it, I refer you to what my dad used to say: "The submarine is a 'boat,' but there are no surface ships...only targets."

I miss the BBs too, but I understand why they were retired even though they could still be awesome warships today. The problem with them was their cost/combat power ratio was too low, especially their operational costs given the 2800+ crews (although after the '80s refurb I think the crew was reduced somewhat). The Navy knew that with the end of the cold war their were going to be large personnel cuts and with 5000+ men on CVs they needed the men on the BBs elsewhere. It's sad, but those are the facts.[:(]

You're right, that's why I was advocating for maybe building new ones. These would be nuclear powered, automated (thus not needing as many personnel) and missile-heavy.

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sstevens06
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RE: Nukes

Post by sstevens06 »

ORIGINAL: Trick37

...

You're right, that's why I was advocating for maybe building new ones. These would be nuclear powered, automated (thus not needing as many personnel) and missile-heavy.



IMO the modern equivalent of BBs are SSNs - all that & stealthy too!
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Trick37_MatrixForum
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RE: Nukes

Post by Trick37_MatrixForum »

ORIGINAL: sstevens06

ORIGINAL: Trick37

...

You're right, that's why I was advocating for maybe building new ones. These would be nuclear powered, automated (thus not needing as many personnel) and missile-heavy.



IMO the modern equivalent of BBs are SSNs - all that & stealthy too!

Very true, but the newer BBs could potentially hold more Tomahawks (for example) than the SSNs. However, the two old Benjamin Franklin-class SSBNs that were converted to Special Forces platforms pose a lot of potential.

The "Arsenal Ship" is a good "Battleship" (sort of speak) that the Navy has been thinking about building. It's actually scary what it can do, and what it could have on it. [X(]

Info on the Arsenal Ship and other force structure changes can be found here (although it's not all correct). The Arsenal Ship, itself, is discussed in the "Diversifying Force Projection" portion.
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golden delicious
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RE: Nukes

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Trick37

Very true, but the newer BBs could potentially hold more Tomahawks (for example) than the SSNs.

Sure, but the SSNs are cheaper and more survivable.
The "Arsenal Ship" is a good "Battleship" (sort of speak) that the Navy has been thinking about building. It's actually scary what it can do, and what it could have on it. [X(]

Info on the Arsenal Ship and other force structure changes can be found here (although it's not all correct). The Arsenal Ship, itself, is discussed in the "Diversifying Force Projection" portion.

I saw something about this. As I understand it the concept is very much a weapon for the inferior navy, much like torpedo boats and submarines were in the first half of the 20th century.
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Trick37_MatrixForum
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RE: Nukes

Post by Trick37_MatrixForum »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
ORIGINAL: Trick37

Very true, but the newer BBs could potentially hold more Tomahawks (for example) than the SSNs.

Sure, but the SSNs are cheaper and more survivable.

Good point, and that's true. But, is it more psychologically effective to make the enemy "see" the new BBs pointing their weapons at you, or is it more effective to let them imagine what's out there (i.e. SSNs with missiles)?

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
ORIGINAL: Trick37
The "Arsenal Ship" is a good "Battleship" (sort of speak) that the Navy has been thinking about building. It's actually scary what it can do, and what it could have on it. [X(]

Info on the Arsenal Ship and other force structure changes can be found here (although it's not all correct). The Arsenal Ship, itself, is discussed in the "Diversifying Force Projection" portion.

I saw something about this. As I understand it the concept is very much a weapon for the inferior navy, much like torpedo boats and submarines were in the first half of the 20th century.

I'm not sure what you mean by "inferior navy," but having a ship with 500+ cruise missiles on it, ready to have its arsenal pounce on any target(s) is, I think, pretty good (and scary at the same time).
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golden delicious
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RE: Nukes

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Trick37

Good point, and that's true. But, is it more psychologically effective to make the enemy "see" the new BBs pointing their weapons at you, or is it more effective to let them imagine what's out there (i.e. SSNs with missiles)?

If it's China, they'll be more worried about what they can't see. What they can see, they can hit.
I'm not sure what you mean by "inferior navy," but having a ship with 500+ cruise missiles on it, ready to have its arsenal pounce on any target(s) is, I think, pretty good (and scary at the same time).

What I mean is that it is a weapon to be used by a power with a small navy to knock out the heavy units (e.g. carriers) of a large navy, thus levelling the playing field. From what I gather the cost per unit of these arsenal ships would be a billion dollars (I imagine something produced by the PLAN or whoever would be a lot cheaper than that), versus a very much larger cost for a carrier group. The ships themselves are apparently extremely vulnerable so would be essentially a one-shot weapon if the enemy has any firepower to speak of, and if they don't, why not use B-52s?
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Trick37_MatrixForum
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RE: Nukes

Post by Trick37_MatrixForum »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
ORIGINAL: Trick37

Good point, and that's true. But, is it more psychologically effective to make the enemy "see" the new BBs pointing their weapons at you, or is it more effective to let them imagine what's out there (i.e. SSNs with missiles)?

If it's China, they'll be more worried about what they can't see. What they can see, they can hit.

In this day and age, I think it's just about with every navy out there (there are exceptions, though).

The BBs don't have to be "seen" close-in due to the range of the Tomahawk. The disadvantage, though, are target near, at or beyond their range. After that we'd need the bombers....and that's a whole other mess.

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
ORIGINAL: Trick37
I'm not sure what you mean by "inferior navy," but having a ship with 500+ cruise missiles on it, ready to have its arsenal pounce on any target(s) is, I think, pretty good (and scary at the same time).

What I mean is that it is a weapon to be used by a power with a small navy to knock out the heavy units (e.g. carriers) of a large navy, thus levelling the playing field. From what I gather the cost per unit of these arsenal ships would be a billion dollars (I imagine something produced by the PLAN or whoever would be a lot cheaper than that), versus a very much larger cost for a carrier group. The ships themselves are apparently extremely vulnerable so would be essentially a one-shot weapon if the enemy has any firepower to speak of, and if they don't, why not use B-52s?

That's the truth for just about any ship. These Arsenal Ships would most likely be protected by either its own battle group, and/or a carrier battle group. Any ship left out there on its own is asking for trouble....after all, as we said, they're not subs.

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sstevens06
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RE: Nukes

Post by sstevens06 »

ORIGINAL: Trick37

...
That's the truth for just about any ship. These Arsenal Ships would most likely be protected by either its own battle group, and/or a carrier battle group. Any ship left out there on its own is asking for trouble....after all, as we said, they're not subs.



More reinforcement for the proposition that the current US Navy SSN/SSGN/SSBN rule the seas. Until and unless the PLAN come up with the world's most advanced and comprehensive ASW capability they will never attempt anything more than intimidation against the ROC.

Recall the effect of one British SSN on Argentinian ability to project naval power during the Falklands War. That one SSN, HMS Conqueror, sank more Argentinian tonnage than the rest of the Royal Navy (and Fleet Air Arm)!
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RE: Nukes

Post by SMK-at-work »

Well it would.....since they all hid in port afterwards......
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golden delicious
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RE: Nukes

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

Well it would.....since they all hid in port afterwards......

Quite. Getting your opponent's navy to hide in port is quite a decisive achievement in a war of that nature.

Here's what I've seen on the Arsenal ship;
Whilst the design is intended to be able to withstand at least one hit by a mine, torpedo or missile, it is unlikely that the ship would remain serviceable after such an attack. Vertical launch missile systems are highly vulnerable to shock damage.
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