AI Kills Me in GDP - GDP Screenshots Incl.

[Arnir]

ORIGINAL: Arnir

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: jscott991
In other words, simply not playing.

That would be called a gross exaggeration. I realize this is a major problem for your playstyle. All you would have to change in your case is one thing, either reducing the galaxy size or using a government that reduces corruption or increases income until the next update while keeping the rest the same.

Thanks for at least acknowledging a problem.

I've acknowledged that this probably wasn't working as intended from the start, based on your report, but we needed a save file to confirm this.

Which government styles are working properly with the current corruption system?

Any thoughts? I don't want to waste time playing if I doomed from the start.

Also, and this has probably been covered and I missed it, but is tribute paid to pirates listed on the Empire Summary Screen (F12)? Which category is it in?

[jscott991]

Republic, Democracy, and Way of Ancients all reduce corruption.

[Spacecadet]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

ORIGINAL: Rustyallan

Watching the private sector numbers is probably a better indicator of what's happening in your empire. I've never seen the empire tax income vary from the tax number in that column, but I have seen those numbers fluctuate and that's what I'm watching in my current game.

My private sector has been in the red forever.

I'm wondering if this is part of the problem?

If the Private sector is running in the red (even with a huge cash reserve) are they less likely/willing to buy the Freighters they need to make the money to get them back in the black?

[YvesDelecroix]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

ORIGINAL: Arnir

Even if they are only paying 5% taxes, it should still mean there is more money to spend to support the same level of ships, etc.  Shouldn't it?

Yes.

I can't get this point across. I've made it about a half dozen different ways and with screenshots, but I've failed.

Maybe it's your methods, jscott? Have you considered that maybe whining incessantly and driving the devs up the wall was not an effective strategy?

Look, I see what you're trying to do. You see a problem and want the devs to address it. That's fair, but when you go on to spam every gorram thread on this board with anti-corruption propaganda, we can all look at that and say it's simply over the top and annoying.

One thing that I noticed is that you finally did upload a save in this thread after Erik had asked for one at least half a dozen times. That's good, that's great. Progress. But, even after he acknowledged the problem and said they'd work on it, you still complained. Ok, so they're going to fix the problem, but now you want them to fix it NOW because you can't play a video game for a week or so. Jesus, man, get a hobby. Go outside. Read a book. You don't have to play this game 24/7 and then troll these forums.

[jscott991]

ORIGINAL: YvesDelecroix

ORIGINAL: jscott991

ORIGINAL: Arnir

Even if they are only paying 5% taxes, it should still mean there is more money to spend to support the same level of ships, etc.  Shouldn't it?

Yes.

I can't get this point across. I've made it about a half dozen different ways and with screenshots, but I've failed.

Maybe it's your methods, jscott? Have you considered that maybe whining incessantly and driving the devs up the wall was not an effective strategy?

Look, I see what you're trying to do. You see a problem and want the devs to address it. That's fair, but when you go on to spam every gorram thread on this board with anti-corruption propaganda, we can all look at that and say it's simply over the top and annoying.

One thing that I noticed is that you finally did upload a save in this thread after Erik had asked for one at least half a dozen times. That's good, that's great. Progress. But, even after he acknowledged the problem and said they'd work on it, you still complained. Ok, so they're going to fix the problem, but now you want them to fix it NOW because you can't play a video game for a week or so. Jesus, man, get a hobby. Go outside. Read a book. You don't have to play this game 24/7 and then troll these forums.

Edit: Changed mind. Not worth a reply.

[jscott991]

ORIGINAL: Spacecadet

ORIGINAL: jscott991

ORIGINAL: Rustyallan

Watching the private sector numbers is probably a better indicator of what's happening in your empire. I've never seen the empire tax income vary from the tax number in that column, but I have seen those numbers fluctuate and that's what I'm watching in my current game.

My private sector has been in the red forever.

I'm wondering if this is part of the problem?

If the Private sector is running in the red (even with a huge cash reserve) are they less likely/willing to buy the Freighters they need to make the money to get them back in the black?

This is part of the same problem. The private sector economy shrinks along with tax revenue (my understanding is that is what you are taxing in the first place). You can follow the decline of the private sector economy in the screenshots. Corruption eats it up. That's despite the fact there is major population growth occurring.

[YvesDelecroix]

ORIGINAL: jscott991
I don't think nearly enough has been made of this.

Well what do you want done about it? The devs drawn and quartered for making a slight mistake, or at worst, a very correctable error? The problems with the system now are bugs, not necessarily design flaws.

The plain and simple fact is that you've done enough trumpeting of your own cause around here for the devs to notice you. If they don't change their development plans now, they're not going to just because you flame more.

[jscott991]

ORIGINAL: YvesDelecroix

ORIGINAL: jscott991
I don't think nearly enough has been made of this.

Well what do you want done about it? The devs drawn and quartered for making a slight mistake, or at worst, a very correctable error? The problems with the system now are bugs, not necessarily design flaws.

The plain and simple fact is that you've done enough trumpeting of your own cause around here for the devs to notice you. If they don't change their development plans now, they're not going to just because you flame more.

Flaming? That's hilarious.

The only flaming that has occurred here are the legion of people that, with no data and obviously no gameplay experience at this, leaped into action to argue that there was no problem at all.

This is exactly what occurs with every Matrix game. You play the game enough to discover a problem. You point the problem out. An army of people tells you there is no problem. You present proof that there is. People keep denying it. And then the devs say, "oh, there was always a problem."

What I don't understand is why a bunch of people who obviously don't play the game are always so quick to defend it.

[YvesDelecroix]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

ORIGINAL: YvesDelecroix

ORIGINAL: jscott991
I don't think nearly enough has been made of this.

Well what do you want done about it? The devs drawn and quartered for making a slight mistake, or at worst, a very correctable error? The problems with the system now are bugs, not necessarily design flaws.

The plain and simple fact is that you've done enough trumpeting of your own cause around here for the devs to notice you. If they don't change their development plans now, they're not going to just because you flame more.

Flaming? That's hilarious.

The only flaming that has occurred here are the legion of people that, with no data and obviously no gameplay experience at this, leaped into action to argue that there was no problem at all.

This is exactly what occurs with every Matrix game. You play the game enough to discover a problem. You point the problem out. An army of people tells you there is no problem. You present proof that there is. People keep denying it. And then the devs say, "oh, there was always a problem."

What I don't understand is why a bunch of people who obviously don't play the game are always so quick to defend it.

One of the only reasons people are so adamant about defending it and "flaming" is because of your caustic remarks. I can understand pointing out a problem, I can understand recommending a solution or even having a good debate, but I've looked at your other posts and for the most part they were either insulting or extremely standoffish. That's what gets on people's nerves.

[Cindar]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

ORIGINAL: Cindar

If your method of playing is to simply sit back and watch autopilot win the game, I would think that you might as well be playing with a coaster anyway.

Seeing how this is a game, I would hope players would have to, you know, play the game in order to win.

That doesn't mean the game shouldn't have a competent autopilot to control the things you aren't currently focusing on.
I want to be able to take over a fleet or two to wage a war... and have my other 10 fleets wage the other wars as controlled by the AI in the meanwhile.

Yes, you can wage war all you want. There is nothing wrong with having 10 fleets. The problem is expecting to support a fleet 5x as strong as the other AI's while using the AI to run your entire empire. There is a reason the other AI's in his empire had much smaller fleets, its because thats all their economy can support. So if you are letting the AI run your own empire, you can't expect to make a fleet significantly stronger then the other AI economies. Its not exactly hard to significantly improve on the AI's economy, but if you purposely neglect to do that then don't complain that you aren't making enough money.

[jscott991]

ORIGINAL: YvesDelecroix
One of the only reasons people are so adamant about defending it and "flaming" is because of your caustic remarks. I can understand pointing out a problem, I can understand recommending a solution or even having a good debate, but I've looked at your other posts and for the most part they were either insulting or extremely standoffish. That's what gets on people's nerves.

Frankly, I don't think you've read any of my posts. But I'm done going back and forth with you. This is pointless. They will fix this self-inflicted problem at their own pace, or they won't. There's nothing else to be done.

[ceyan]

You present proof that there is.

I've tried to keep quiet on the subject, but I have to step in here. Fact of the matter is as soon as someone who was pushing and pushing that a corruption bug existed (primarily you and Fish) got around to actually doing what Erik asked (posting a savegame), he readily admitted that the problem was confirmed thanks to the proof. The problem was you (and others pushing the issue) sat on your butt for days after Erik first asked for a save.

Strut around that you were right, because you were, but quit with the ridiculous criticism that somehow the developers weren't listening, or switched their stance out of nowhere, when as soon as someone stood up and gave them what they wanted you finally got the answer you wanted.

Edit:
And before you come back with the obvious loophole hit, regardless of whether they should have needed a save to identify the problem or not, they requested it and you can fault them for not confirming the problem until you proved it by giving them what they asked for in order to show proof.

[jscott991]

ORIGINAL: Cindar

Yes, you can wage war all you want. There is nothing wrong with having 10 fleets. The problem is expecting to support a fleet 5x as strong as the other AI's while using the AI to run your entire empire. There is a reason the other AI's in his empire had much smaller fleets, its because thats all their economy can support. So if you are letting the AI run your own empire, you can't expect to make a fleet significantly stronger then the other AI economies. Its not exactly hard to significantly improve on the AI's economy, but if you purposely neglect to do that then don't complain that you aren't making enough money.

You've said this a lot. I've rebutted it a lot.

In year 100, I could afford a fleet of 300 ships and run a positive. In year 200, despite nothing but growth (both in terms of population and new colonies), I could not afford a fleet of 300 ships.

That isn't logical economic design. I can't make it any simpler than that. The savegames are there. They show a constant fleet size and a lessening ability to pay for that fleet, despite nothing but growth in terms of population.

[jscott991]

ORIGINAL: ceyan

You present proof that there is.

I've tried to keep quiet on the subject, but I have to step in here. Fact of the matter is as soon as someone who was pushing and pushing that a corruption bug existed (primarily you and Fish) got around to actually doing what Erik asked (posting a savegame), he readily admitted that the problem was confirmed thanks to the proof. The problem was you (and others pushing the issue) sat on your butt for days after Erik first asked for a save.

Strut around that you were right, because you were, but quit with the ridiculous criticism that somehow the developers weren't listening, or switched their stance out of nowhere, when as soon as someone stood up and gave them what they wanted you finally got the answer you wanted.

Edit:
And before you come back with the obvious loophole hit, regardless of whether they should have needed a save to identify the problem or not, they requested it and you can fault them for not confirming the problem until you proved it by giving them what they asked for in order to show proof.

This is a blatant falsehood and exaggeration. This entire thread is like some kind of Lewis Carroll-induced nightmare.

This problem was pointed out on 5/8.

I uploaded savegames and screenshots starting at 10 AM on 5/9 (a Saturday morning).

Seriously, what more could you ask? I would have uploaded before, but I can't connect to the FTP server, something I've pointed out in the past.

[Cindar]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

You've said this a lot. I've rebutted it a lot.

In year 100, I could afford a fleet of 300 ships and run a positive. In year 200, despite nothing but growth (both in terms of population and new colonies), I could not afford a fleet of 300 ships.

That isn't logical economic design. I can't make it any simpler than that. The savegames are there. They show a constant fleet size and a lessening ability to pay for that fleet, despite nothing but growth in terms of population.

I can find plenty of countries which have both greater population and greater land area then my own state, yet they have a worse economy. I guess the real world has an illogical economic design. In any case, your economy was fixed by simply doing nothing and letting your colonies develop for a while, which brought back up the income. That's so hard to do, isn't it?

[ceyan]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

ORIGINAL: ceyan

You present proof that there is.

I've tried to keep quiet on the subject, but I have to step in here. Fact of the matter is as soon as someone who was pushing and pushing that a corruption bug existed (primarily you and Fish) got around to actually doing what Erik asked (posting a savegame), he readily admitted that the problem was confirmed thanks to the proof. The problem was you (and others pushing the issue) sat on your butt for days after Erik first asked for a save.

Strut around that you were right, because you were, but quit with the ridiculous criticism that somehow the developers weren't listening, or switched their stance out of nowhere, when as soon as someone stood up and gave them what they wanted you finally got the answer you wanted.

Edit:
And before you come back with the obvious loophole hit, regardless of whether they should have needed a save to identify the problem or not, they requested it and you can fault them for not confirming the problem until you proved it by giving them what they asked for in order to show proof.

This is a blatant falsehood and exaggeration. This entire thread is like some kind of Lewis Carroll-induced nightmare.

This problem was pointed out on 5/8.

I uploaded savegames and screenshots starting at 10 AM on 5/9 (a Saturday morning).

Seriously, what more could you ask? I would have uploaded before, but I can't connect to the FTP server, something I've pointed out in the past.

And the loophole isn't a loophole at all. As you showed, you can produce this problem in like 5 minutes by generating old empires. You certainly can produce it in a few hours of automated colonization.

As I said, regardless of whether they should have needed a save or not, they wanted it.

Furthermore, you're right, that you first brought it up on the 8th (Fish on the 7th), but you were posting in multiple threads derailing them with corruption statements. The whole reason I actually made my little attempt was because of all the on-going statements you made about the issue and the fact that you were asked to post your save more than once before you admitted to being unable to use the FTP server (and you posted in between Erik's request for a save and the notice about being unable to easily work with the FTP server).

The overall point is you complained about the issue, Erik asked for a save, you complained about the issue, Erik asked for a save, you said you couldn't provide the save via the FTP server, you provided the save via an alternative means, Erik confirmed the issue, you complained about the issue...

I tried to avoid speaking up about it after that because I wanted to see it dead, but you're the one who can't let it lie. I was perfectly fine with ignoring this thread and letting it die a happy death until, lo and behold, you post in MORE threads about corruption...

[jscott991]

You can't derail threads on the patch by pointing out bugs in the patch. Or threads on whether the game still has bugs by pointing out bugs (in this case, monumental bugs that should be taken into account by anyone who wants to play the game).

The fact that even after this has been admitted to to be a bug, despite everyone (but Erik)'s insistence to the contrary people still call it "derailing" to be pointing it out and its extent would be humorous to a more disinterested observer.

Edit: Despite the fact that numerous mischaracterizations of the corruption issue keep being posted here, I'm going to attempt to refrain from keeping this going. It's been pointed out. They will correct it or they won't. I just don't understand this pattern of Matrix fanaticism where obvious bugs are attacked incessantly, even after the bug is admitted to exist.

[Erik Rutins]

Peace - let's get back on topic please, folks. I understand the disagreements, but the upshot now is that we are already at work on the next update which will resolve this. While I would appreciate that future issue reports not be posted in multiple threads repeatedly, I also understand that some issues will bother some players and playstyles more than others.

Suffice it to say that we did not intend for corruption to be uncapped and I said that from the start. We appreciate the save files that confirmed the issue. In the next build, it will be capped as intended and we hope this will satisfy all playstyles. We are also still planning to implement a corruption slider in 1.0.5 by the time it becomes an official release.

[Bartje]

Thanks Erik, I think we needed to hear that [:)]

[Sigh]

I would appreciate if this potential bug were not assumed to be the intended design.

lol

wouldn't happen if it worked (in either case) right? [8|]


Games still unplayable