Express to Valhalla GC41 M60 (Axis) vs MSAG (Sov) MSAG welcome

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M60A3TTS
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Re: Express to Valhalla GC41 M60 (Axis) vs MSAG (Sov) MSAG welcome

Post by M60A3TTS »

Week 26 14-20 December 1941

Blizzard conditions greatly reduced this week and only impact elements of Army Group North in the Lake Peipus-Lake Ilmen area. Despite this, freight tonnage to the ground troops only rises modestly this week, to 18,885 tons, an increase of 1,424 tons.

Image


The Russians only launch three ground attacks in the Tula sector. Despite our local units llosing some ground, Soviet casualties are estimated at 7,500 compared to 1,500 of our own. This five-to-one advantage in losses reflects the fact that the Russians have a long ways to go in terms of conducting modern, effective warfare.


Elements of 11th Army are now on the move by rail to Kursk (11th Corps) and Dnepropetrovsk (49th Mountain and 54th Corps) that will reinforce threatened areas in the coming weeks. Genl. Model elects to retain 30th Corps at Nikolaev.


With the moderating weather conditions and the Red Army seemingly content to sit on their behinds, the Fuhrer is once again talking up the idea of resuming the offensive towards Leningrad and Rostov. With such limited actions, supply in his mind is something we must certainly be able to manage. It was necessary to point out to him that much of the Luftwaffe has been moved to winter quarters, so any substantial ground support has little prospect of materializing. The weather conditions also are not expected to remain favorable for any length of time. We also have reason to believe that the Russians are releasing substantial manpower reserves and are bringing them forward.

Image

A query put forth to the two relevant ground commanders, Leeb and Rundstedt find no enthusiasm for any new advances until Spring. On that basis, a postponement of any further discussions along these lines will give us at least a week’s respite.
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xhoel
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Re: Express to Valhalla GC41 M60 (Axis) vs MSAG (Sov) MSAG welcome

Post by xhoel »

M60A3TTS wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:24 am
Elements of 11th Army are now on the move by rail to Kursk (11th Corps) and Dnepropetrovsk (49th Mountain and 54th Corps) that will reinforce threatened areas in the coming weeks. Genl. Model elects to retain 30th Corps at Nikolaev.
Good choice keeping 30th Corps in reserve while pressing the rest of the 11th Army to fill in gaps and reinforce the front. Taking Crimea before winter is really helpful to the Axis.
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M60A3TTS
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Week 32 and game over

Post by M60A3TTS »

This game has ended.

First winter brought about some very good play featuring a lot of attacks by MSAG.

By Turn 32 my vehicle repair numbers had grown to just shy of 130,000. For those that have gotten this far, you know that there is a limit for broken vehicles before the effects really become problematic. Those numbers are generally above 120,000. At that point most infantry units fall to half their allotted movement points and in first winter that is a killer.

Overall supplies in the depots were not great, but were not bad either, with about 77,000 tons in depots within the Soviet Union.

A key contributor to the high vehicle losses involved attempts by the AI to draw freight from depots at or close to the maximum distance of 30 hexes. With so many heavy snow hexes along the path, the MP numbers were well over 100. This is a particular problem that seems to be unique to motorized or panzer divisions, although there is no real logic to that. With any freight, a ton is a ton, regardless of what type of division it is going to.

There are numerous examples, but here is probably the best one.

Image

10th Motorized Division identified 13 tons of freight available in Gomel. The AI then sent one truck after another in an attempt to pick up the 13 tons of freight under the worst conditions. Eventually 1,057 vehicles became lost or damaged in this attempt. You can imagine that it does not take many attempts like this to cripple the vehicle fleet and cause the logistics to collapse as it did here. It was effectively game over.

If this is not a reporting bug, it would seem hard to avoid wrecking the vehicle fleet when all it takes is a few tons of supplies in a depot to be available around or at the 30 hex limit between depot and unit where a lot of heavy snow is present. Replacing as many motorized and rifle divisions with infantry might be one way to go, although it shouldn't be necessary to do that. Again, with freight, a ton is a ton.
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Re: Express to Valhalla GC41 M60 (Axis) vs MSAG (Sov) MSAG welcome

Post by Stamb »

from the manual:
Units look to draw freight from the nearest depot, which can be some distance away.
The further the unit is from the depot, the greater usage of vehicles and fuel to move
the supplies and the more that is lost in transit.

Note: The trucks attached to the unit will be used for this as well as
those retained in the general truck pool. If too many trucks need to
be used for re-supply, the Movement Points available to the unit will
decrease.

The overall number of trucks detached from units to obtain supply can be checked
using the end of turn logistics and production report (36.9).

The range for this supply is limited to either 30 hexes or 75 motorized MP if the
logistics level is set to 100
.
and you have twice of that
hard Axis life :(
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Sammy5IsAlive
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Re: Week 32 and game over

Post by Sammy5IsAlive »

M60A3TTS wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:49 pm This game has ended.
Shame to see the game end, this has been an excellent AAR :) .

Might be worth checking in tech support whether this is working correctly - I'd always read the manual as meaning that if either 30 hexes or 75MPs were exceeded supply would not happen but seems it is working the other way round where as long as one condition is met supply will happen. So in good clear weather you might get supply happening over like 50 hexes whereas in your situation it is happening across 148MPs.

3 potential reasons why the Pz/Mot divs might be being affected worse by this:

1) They have more vehicles in the unit that can be sent on this 'suicide mission'. I'd imagine that at some point of vehicle scarcity the code stops making supply requests - if this is a percentage then it will be worse for the motorized units.
2) Along similar lines, say if there was a part of the supply routines which is supposed to simulate small 'top-ups' of supply where possible. So for example it could be coded that if there is 5% (example number) of supplies available the unit will try and get this with its trucks even over long distances. Given that Pz/Mot units require much less supplies than Infantry ones this could have the counter-intuitive effect that they use up large numbers of trucks chasing small amounts of supply (whereas when the infantry unit, with its bigger supply requirement, might be unable to source the required 5% and so will not send out trucks to their doom)
3) It might have something to do with the return of damaged elements? My understanding is that different types of element have different 'weights' in terms of the supply system. So for example it costs a lot more to move a Panzer division by rail than it does an Infantry one. I can see on your screen shot that it is saying that you used 37 tons of freight moving minus 208 replacements. I assume the minus means that these are elements leaving the unit. So potentially if they are AFV elements they might be using up the local freight in a way that the return of damaged infantry elements does not???

One last thought - whilst it does not look like the system is working as it should do I'm not sure why you still have the displayed unit on supply priority 3? If this was a problem I had seen developing over a number of turns I would have been turning the supply priority down.

Was this a server game or PBEM?
jasonbroomer
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Re: Express to Valhalla GC41 M60 (Axis) vs MSAG (Sov) MSAG welcome

Post by jasonbroomer »

Hindsight is always easy, but when the local depots are struggling to supply the front you MUST reduce the supply priority of the unit. Your motorised unit was on priority 3, if it were on 1 or even 2, along with troops in the vicinity supply would have been rationed and your trucks would have been spared.
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M60A3TTS
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Re: Express to Valhalla GC41 M60 (Axis) vs MSAG (Sov) MSAG welcome

Post by M60A3TTS »

jasonbroomer wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:24 pm Hindsight is always easy, but when the local depots are struggling to supply the front you MUST reduce the supply priority of the unit. Your motorised unit was on priority 3, if it were on 1 or even 2, along with troops in the vicinity supply would have been rationed and your trucks would have been spared.
You might be right. Trouble is in this case,13 tons is such a small amount I'm not sure if even at priority 1, the unit would not have tried to draw the freight, We've seen cases where even priority 0 units draw supplies.
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M60A3TTS
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Re: Week 32 and game over

Post by M60A3TTS »

Sammy5IsAlive wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 4:00 pm
M60A3TTS wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:49 pm This game has ended.
Shame to see the game end, this has been an excellent AAR :) .

Might be worth checking in tech support whether this is working correctly - I'd always read the manual as meaning that if either 30 hexes or 75MPs were exceeded supply would not happen but seems it is working the other way round where as long as one condition is met supply will happen. So in good clear weather you might get supply happening over like 50 hexes whereas in your situation it is happening across 148MPs.

3 potential reasons why the Pz/Mot divs might be being affected worse by this:

1) They have more vehicles in the unit that can be sent on this 'suicide mission'. I'd imagine that at some point of vehicle scarcity the code stops making supply requests - if this is a percentage then it will be worse for the motorized units.
2) Along similar lines, say if there was a part of the supply routines which is supposed to simulate small 'top-ups' of supply where possible. So for example it could be coded that if there is 5% (example number) of supplies available the unit will try and get this with its trucks even over long distances. Given that Pz/Mot units require much less supplies than Infantry ones this could have the counter-intuitive effect that they use up large numbers of trucks chasing small amounts of supply (whereas when the infantry unit, with its bigger supply requirement, might be unable to source the required 5% and so will not send out trucks to their doom)
3) It might have something to do with the return of damaged elements? My understanding is that different types of element have different 'weights' in terms of the supply system. So for example it costs a lot more to move a Panzer division by rail than it does an Infantry one. I can see on your screen shot that it is saying that you used 37 tons of freight moving minus 208 replacements. I assume the minus means that these are elements leaving the unit. So potentially if they are AFV elements they might be using up the local freight in a way that the return of damaged infantry elements does not???

One last thought - whilst it does not look like the system is working as it should do I'm not sure why you still have the displayed unit on supply priority 3? If this was a problem I had seen developing over a number of turns I would have been turning the supply priority down.

Was this a server game or PBEM?
1. Could be
2. Don't know.
3. I believe that the freight for the replacements was drawn from the closer depot.
4. JB would agree with you.
5. PBEM
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M60A3TTS
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Re: Express to Valhalla GC41 M60 (Axis) vs MSAG (Sov) MSAG welcome

Post by M60A3TTS »

redrum68 wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:30 pm Great AAR though sad to see it end! Any thoughts on what you would have done differently?
Swapped out some panzers for infantry.

Added more front line depots.

Possibly more aggressive with super depots where the armor is concentrated.
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Re: Express to Valhalla GC41 M60 (Axis) vs MSAG (Sov) MSAG welcome

Post by homer82 »

M60A3TTS wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:11 am If von Rundstedt holds nothing back, the few Soviet divisions opposite him will simply “fall into the bag” while an advance to Stalingrad or Maikop would not be out of the question amidst a general collapse of the Red Army. An incredible level of optimism on his part provided the question of logistics is totally removed from any calculations!
I just laughed so hard at your logistics reference that wine shot out of my nose. Thanks! :lol:
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Re: Express to Valhalla GC41 M60 (Axis) vs MSAG (Sov) MSAG welcome

Post by Wiedrock »

Since this AAR got crippled by this, here's something what may have been overlooked or may be somewhat imbalanced.
M60A3TTS wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:49 pm If this is not a reporting bug [...]
Sammy5IsAlive wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 4:00 pm Might be worth checking in tech support whether this is working correctly - I'd always read the manual as meaning that if either 30 hexes or 75MPs were exceeded supply would not happen but seems it is working the other way round where as long as one condition is met supply will happen. So in good clear weather you might get supply happening over like 50 hexes whereas in your situation it is happening across 148MPs.
As a "non native englishian" I've also understood it in this way. Well, 30 Hexes seem to be the absolute max. Looking at MPs that seems to be another story. While the Manual refers to 75MPs to be the max in most cases it also states in one occasion:
Living Manual 1.18 (patch 1.2.44) p.457f wrote: 25.2.5. Maximum Ranges
The maximum distance a unit can access a depot is cannot be more than 30 hexes away. Ideally, the routine will try to avoid paths that cost 75 or more movement points but such a path might occur depending on the circumstances.
These values will vary if the morale or logistics levels are set above 100.

Errata - Clarification (01.01.00): When tracing distance for freight movement from a depot to a unit, the number of MPs will never be more than 4x the number of movement points [stated above].
If I interpret this errata correctly (I added the "stated above"), the max MP cost would be 4x75MP = 300MP.
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M60A3TTS
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Re: Express to Valhalla GC41 M60 (Axis) vs MSAG (Sov) MSAG welcome

Post by M60A3TTS »

This game was a good logistics lesson and subsequently I adopted the all-4s depot approach that carlkay58 developed. With a slight tweak in managing the size2+ yards combined with better RAD management, by week 28 of a re-match I could see very favorable results the second time around.

This game, total freight tons in Soviet depots = 126,859

Re-match, total freight tons in Soviet depots = 645,641 plus 20k fewer vehicles under repair.
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