The tojo as uber.....

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jwilkerson
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

Post by jwilkerson »

ORIGINAL: Big B

It seems to me that your test conditions listed below are rock solid for establishing a baseline. However, after establishing that baseline, how can one know what the effects of different aircraft ratings in different categories will be - unless one starts to throw in those different stats systematically?

Yup that is exactly what one would do!

==

It might actually be of some use to discuss the path I followed a few years back. Note this was with WITP not AE.

I wanted to know which factors where "high leverage" in air to air combat and which were not. In other words I wanted to know which factors - if changed a little - would make a big difference to the results - and which would not. So I set off down the road of making a sand box.

Well I made my first sand box and the results were asymmetrical - meaning given that most things were the same on both sides - I was not getting "flat" results. For some reason, the attacker (the sweeper) was always winning by somewhere between 3 to 1 and 5 to 1. So I assumed my sand box was still not completely neutral with respect to some key variables and so I made some more things the same. The results were still assymmetrical - and I made some more things the same. But now, everything was the same as per my above post - and still the results were asymmetrical - the attacker always won by between 3 to 1 and 5 to 1.

So we went and looked in the code - and holy cow - we found the "sweep bonus". Basically a 3 to 2 chance that the sweeper will get the bounce! This factor was the single most important factor in air to air combat in WITP and probably still is in AE.

Once we figured that out, I went back to testing and starting varying things like firepower, durability, experience and maneuver. And IIRC, that was about the order of importance. Small changes in firepower were important, but larger and larger changes were needed in durability, experience and finallly maneuverability in order to dramatically influence the results.

Interestingly, I know that what many WITPers called the "Zero Bonus" was really the "Sweep Bonus". Someone actually did some exhausive testing (can't recall who) that proved the "Zero Bonus" made almost no difference. But, Zeros flying sweeps will win big time in WITP - thought that is because they are flying sweeps - not because of the "Zero Bonus".

So one possible explanation for loopsided results in AE is still the sweep bonus. If you think you are seeing loopsided results, try reversing the combat and let the "uber plane" be on CAP and the "nada-uber plane" sweep and see if the "uber effects" are taken down a notch.

Another key factor is/was the detection of the incomming raid. In WITP there was a mid-war allied "radar bonus" which dramatically increased Allied fighters on CAP getting the bounce. In AE this is replaced with both sides being more likely to scramble more fighters based on detection of the incomming raid. But over time, in AE, this will result in a significant Allied advantage as they have lots more and lots better radars.

Another factor that seems to matter a lot in AE though I have not done exhaustive testing on it - is range. It seems that there is a big range attenuation factor for fighters - so either on sweep or escort - it seems like fighters flying farther and farther - do less and less well. I've seen P-38s sweeping get clobbered by Oscars on CAP if the P-38s are flying super long range missions.

So, at least based on my experience in AE, if you want your fighters to win, then fly short ranged sweeps or get your opponent to fly long ranged ones and have lots of firepower and durability. And if you're on CAP, have lots of long range radar! A bit of experience won't hurt.


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RE: The tojo as uber.....

Post by mike scholl 1 »

"So, at least based on my experience in AE, if you want your fighters to win, then fly short ranged sweeps or get your opponent to fly long ranged ones and have lots of firepower and durability. And if you're on CAP, have lots of long range radar! A bit of experience won't hurt. "

Which seems kinda strange, as when units swept each others bases, they generally seem to have come in at treetop level to avoid being spotted until they burst into view over the airfield straffing.   The whole "I can fly higher than you can" just seems silly.  Who cares if your fighters want to dunce around 7 miles above me?  When they come down low enough to actually see me, or be a threat to me, then I'll worry about it.
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

Post by Big B »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Big B

It seems to me that your test conditions listed below are rock solid for establishing a baseline. However, after establishing that baseline, how can one know what the effects of different aircraft ratings in different categories will be - unless one starts to throw in those different stats systematically?

Yup that is exactly what one would do!

==
Well that's reassuring to know! LOL! [:D]
ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
....

Interestingly, I know that what many WITPers called the "Zero Bonus" was really the "Sweep Bonus". Someone actually did some exhausive testing (can't recall who) that proved the "Zero Bonus" made almost no difference.
....

That was ME! LOL![:D]

B
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

Post by chesmart »

So BigB will you be testing it so this idea of UBER Bounce dies once and for all ?
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

Post by Big B »

Whew... well, my initial response is - NOT A CHANCE!...that was time consuming and a lot of work the last time ...(wink [;)]).

On the other hand, I admit to grousing about doing another mod for AE - with Air Combat as the initial centerpiece(my own irrational mania)...so maybe.

It's just that after modding WitP, and helping out with AE - I'm just so darned drained.


B
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So BigB will you be testing it so this idea of UBER Bounce dies once and for all ?
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

Post by jwilkerson »

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

"So, at least based on my experience in AE, if you want your fighters to win, then fly short ranged sweeps or get your opponent to fly long ranged ones and have lots of firepower and durability. And if you're on CAP, have lots of long range radar! A bit of experience won't hurt. "

Which seems kinda strange, as when units swept each others bases, they generally seem to have come in at treetop level to avoid being spotted until they burst into view over the airfield straffing.   The whole "I can fly higher than you can" just seems silly.  Who cares if your fighters want to dunce around 7 miles above me?  When they come down low enough to actually see me, or be a threat to me, then I'll worry about it.

Not sure how your sentences have any relation to my sentences as you seem to be talking about altitude - and I'm not.
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

Post by Onime No Kyo »

[:D]
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

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Spending most of my time with my wife and son playing "Age of Mythology" (she likes that game) and "Combat Mission: North Africa"...I'm a sucker for tank battles in the desert....[:D]
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

Post by mike scholl 1 »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

"So, at least based on my experience in AE, if you want your fighters to win, then fly short ranged sweeps or get your opponent to fly long ranged ones and have lots of firepower and durability. And if you're on CAP, have lots of long range radar! A bit of experience won't hurt. "

Which seems kinda strange, as when units swept each others bases, they generally seem to have come in at treetop level to avoid being spotted until they burst into view over the airfield straffing.   The whole "I can fly higher than you can" just seems silly.  Who cares if your fighters want to dunce around 7 miles above me?  When they come down low enough to actually see me, or be a threat to me, then I'll worry about it.

Not sure how your sentences have any relation to my sentences as you seem to be talking about altitude - and I'm not.


Because the game rewards "sweeps" made at max altitude..., and I can't figure out why if the higher side is getting "the bounce", they aren't having to come down to the lower sides altitude to do it. Why is the CAP climbing to the "sweeps" altitude? Shouldn't it be the other way around?
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

"So, at least based on my experience in AE, if you want your fighters to win, then fly short ranged sweeps or get your opponent to fly long ranged ones and have lots of firepower and durability. And if you're on CAP, have lots of long range radar! A bit of experience won't hurt. "

Which seems kinda strange, as when units swept each others bases, they generally seem to have come in at treetop level to avoid being spotted until they burst into view over the airfield straffing.   The whole "I can fly higher than you can" just seems silly.  Who cares if your fighters want to dunce around 7 miles above me?  When they come down low enough to actually see me, or be a threat to me, then I'll worry about it.

Not sure how your sentences have any relation to my sentences as you seem to be talking about altitude - and I'm not.


Because the game rewards "sweeps" made at max altitude..., and I can't figure out why if the higher side is getting "the bounce", they aren't having to come down to the lower sides altitude to do it. Why is the CAP climbing to the "sweeps" altitude? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

With WWII radar being what it was...primitive, likely the best you got was a large incoming raid of unknown aircraft. The ground controllers very well might send up at least one element of the CAP to check it out. That would explain at least part of the CAP aircraft climbing up to meet the raid. The rest of the CAP may or may not choose to climb to engage though.

You can't think in terms of modern radar. In WWII, they might not be able to define exactly what was incoming, only that it was incoming. Basically, there would be a ground radar detection and you might not know if it was fighters or bombers. You might not want to climb up to engage fighters, but you also don't want to let bombers get through unmolested. I'm not convinced you'd want to keep sending the CAP up to engage once you determine there were no bombers though.
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

Post by mike scholl 1 »

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson




Not sure how your sentences have any relation to my sentences as you seem to be talking about altitude - and I'm not.


Because the game rewards "sweeps" made at max altitude..., and I can't figure out why if the higher side is getting "the bounce", they aren't having to come down to the lower sides altitude to do it. Why is the CAP climbing to the "sweeps" altitude? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

With WWII radar being what it was...primitive, likely the best you got was a large incoming raid of unknown aircraft. The ground controllers very well might send up at least one element of the CAP to check it out. That would explain at least part of the CAP aircraft climbing up to meet the raid. The rest of the CAP may or may not choose to climb to engage though.

You can't think in terms of modern radar. In WWII, they might not be able to define exactly what was incoming, only that it was incoming. Basically, there would be a ground radar detection and you might not know if it was fighters or bombers. You might not want to climb up to engage fighters, but you also don't want to let bombers get through unmolested. I'm not convinced you'd want to keep sending the CAP up to engage once you determine there were no bombers though.


Understand your point, Shark..., but my question concerned "the bounce" or "surprise" or "altitude advantage" or whatever you want to call it. The implication is that one side has an advantage over the other and can dive down on it's opponent.

If one side has surprise, it shouldn't matter if they are diving from above or coming up from beneath and behind. But the game only seems to reward altitude. What's worse, when the higher side has the bounce/surprise, the lower side (who is supposedly being surprised) still climbs to meet them (even though they don't know they are there).

I don't have a problem with side at superior altitude having an advantage in getting "the bounce" (unless the altitude is so superior that they can't see the lower side. Clouds and all, you know.) But if they have "the bounce", they should have to descend to the lower side's altitude to use it. It just makes sense.
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: pompack

I have not said much because it seems like I am playing a different game. This is all anecdotal instead of a formal test, but here is my recent (PBEM) experience with sweeps and Tojos

My game has reached (at least temporerily) a state of equilibrium in late July 42. There are three Allied airbases with varying numbers of P40E's and Hurricanes within range of seven Japanese bases with (until recently) Oscar 1c's. As the Japanese, I have been running between two and seven sweeps per day against one or more of these Allied bases. I have sent in the sweeps at 15k, 20k, 25k and 30k and sometimes all of them at the same time. The Japanese fighter pilots are mostly 50-72 air skill and 50-70 experience (I try to fill losses with vets from the reserve but sometimes have to add a rookie or two). I don't know the Allied skill levels, but I suspect that they are about the same or higher since my opponent has the majority of his units in training due to the usual Allied early-war shortage of airframes. Recently he has added seveal F4F units and a single P38. For the last three weeks there have been at least two sweeps per day. The result has been ... average. the usual result is I lose two, he loses one then I lose 1 and he loses three then I lose three and he loses two and repeat.

After reading this thread, I was eagerly anticipating the Tojo rout. I carefully brought up my pre-production Tojo unit and two new units fresh from five months of training and then Tojo conversion. I launched all three at 30k feet, one at each of the target airbases. Just to make sure, I also keep up the pressure with sweeps from seven Oscar units as well. After three days of intense fighting the results have been ... just the same as before. In Tojo combat I lost 12 and destroyed 14 while losing 38 Oscars who destroyed 28 allied aircraft. These were the A2A results; when I include ops losses I came off considerable worse- just like the previous three weeks. At this point I am back to rest mode while I wait for replacement a/c and fresh pilots

So in 24 days of combat with somewhere between two and nine sweeps per day at altitudes between 15k and 30k (and with the average above 25k) I never achieved better than a 7:2 kill ratio with a single sweep. Now it may be significant that the largest sweep was less than 20 a/c and most were between five and 10 a/c; the defenders were usually 30-40 but quite often they were outnumbered when the fight started, the rest joining later.

As I say, certainly not controlled testing. However it is a large number of individual fights. And yes, I do feel that I am losing the battle [:)]



IMO you need more (many more) fighters in your single sweeps and preferrable all of them above your opponent´s fighters. If you keep diving on them you will get "nice" results in your game. Not the realistic ones you quoted but good result for your side in your game.
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

Post by jwilkerson »

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

Because the game rewards "sweeps" made at max altitude...


Are you sure?

Regardless - starting a new line of thought based on an unrelated group of sentences is kind of like saying "one plus one is two - therefore we are going to Florida!" You can talk about altitude - but it just doesn't make sense to start off by quoting a group of sentences that are not talking about altitude.

BTW, aren't you going to Florida yet!!! [:D]
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

"So, at least based on my experience in AE, if you want your fighters to win, then fly short ranged sweeps or get your opponent to fly long ranged ones and have lots of firepower and durability. And if you're on CAP, have lots of long range radar! A bit of experience won't hurt. "

Which seems kinda strange, as when units swept each others bases, they generally seem to have come in at treetop level to avoid being spotted until they burst into view over the airfield straffing.   The whole "I can fly higher than you can" just seems silly.  Who cares if your fighters want to dunce around 7 miles above me?  When they come down low enough to actually see me, or be a threat to me, then I'll worry about it.

Not sure how your sentences have any relation to my sentences as you seem to be talking about altitude - and I'm not.


Because the game rewards "sweeps" made at max altitude..., and I can't figure out why if the higher side is getting "the bounce", they aren't having to come down to the lower sides altitude to do it. Why is the CAP climbing to the "sweeps" altitude? Shouldn't it be the other way around?
It depends. If the CAP can't get to the Sweep (which it will try), then the Sweep will come down. Unless the CAP AC have long Early detection time (radar), and a superior rate of climb, or the Sweep fumbles it's detection of the CAP, then the CAP will likely be at a disadvantage.

Short of a Doctrine system we will continue to see CAPs attempt to engage in combat. Sorry, but that is more representative than fleeing at the mere sight of an enemy formation above you. I acknowledge that fleeing was a valid tactic over Port Moresby in Early '42, but like I said our little 1s and 0s, and most aggressive RW fighter leaders seek combat, though they always prefer it at an advantage. If they didn't in AE this thread would be about how "my CAP is ineffective and never engages the enemy...".
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1





Because the game rewards "sweeps" made at max altitude..., and I can't figure out why if the higher side is getting "the bounce", they aren't having to come down to the lower sides altitude to do it. Why is the CAP climbing to the "sweeps" altitude? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

With WWII radar being what it was...primitive, likely the best you got was a large incoming raid of unknown aircraft. The ground controllers very well might send up at least one element of the CAP to check it out. That would explain at least part of the CAP aircraft climbing up to meet the raid. The rest of the CAP may or may not choose to climb to engage though.

You can't think in terms of modern radar. In WWII, they might not be able to define exactly what was incoming, only that it was incoming. Basically, there would be a ground radar detection and you might not know if it was fighters or bombers. You might not want to climb up to engage fighters, but you also don't want to let bombers get through unmolested. I'm not convinced you'd want to keep sending the CAP up to engage once you determine there were no bombers though.


Understand your point, Shark..., but my question concerned "the bounce" or "surprise" or "altitude advantage" or whatever you want to call it. The implication is that one side has an advantage over the other and can dive down on it's opponent.

If one side has surprise, it shouldn't matter if they are diving from above or coming up from beneath and behind. But the game only seems to reward altitude. What's worse, when the higher side has the bounce/surprise, the lower side (who is supposedly being surprised) still climbs to meet them (even though they don't know they are there).

I don't have a problem with side at superior altitude having an advantage in getting "the bounce" (unless the altitude is so superior that they can't see the lower side. Clouds and all, you know.) But if they have "the bounce", they should have to descend to the lower side's altitude to use it. It just makes sense.
Bounce is not directly representative of an altitude advantage. Bounce implies surprise. Use your imagination as to how many different ways you can surprise your opponent, and it doesn't have to be with an altitude or energy advantage. There are varying degrees of bounces.

That said, Having an altitude advantage does increase the likelihood of a bounce occurring, as the most favorable potion to achieve a bounce is from above and unobserved.

Altitude advantage is a separate bonus that essentially modifies MVR values for at least the first round of combat and in some cases more, depending on Pilot EXP and several rolls. This advantage can be prolonged or fumbled, but in cases where it works in concert with a BOUNCE it can be extremely deadly. This concept is not unprecedented in history.
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

Because the game rewards "sweeps" made at max altitude...


Are you sure?

Regardless - starting a new line of thought based on an unrelated group of sentences is kind of like saying "one plus one is two - therefore we are going to Florida!" You can talk about altitude - but it just doesn't make sense to start off by quoting a group of sentences that are not talking about altitude.

BTW, aren't you going to Florida yet!!! [:D]
I am going to Florida....
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

Post by mike scholl 1 »

ORIGINAL: TheElf
Bounce implies surprise. Use your imagination as to how many different ways you can surprise your opponent, and it doesn't have to be with an altitude or energy advantage. There are varying degrees of bounces.

That said, Having an altitude advantage does increase the likelihood of a bounce occurring, as the most favorable potion to achieve a bounce is from above and unobserved.

Altitude advantage is a separate bonus that essentially modifies MVR values for at least the first round of combat and in some cases more, depending on Pilot EXP and several rolls. This advantage can be prolonged or fumbled, but in cases where it works in concert with a BOUNCE it can be extremely deadly. This concept is not unprecedented in history.


Believe I said that, Elf. But if "bounce" implies "surprise", and the side gaining the "bounce" is at a higher altitude, shouldn't they be coming down to take advantage of the "surprise". It still makes no sense for the side being "surprised" to have to climb to meet the attacker when they don't know the attacker is there (they're being surprised, right?).

If you spot the enemy, and he doesn't see you, you close in to take advantage of it don't you? If he's above you, you try to come up from below and behind to keep him from spotting you until you are in position to attack; and if you are above him you try to put yourself between your target and the sun and dive on him. When the side with the altitude advantage starts the combat, shouldn't it take place at the altitude of the defender? Why should he get the advantage of having the combat take place at his chosen altitude instead of that of the A/C he's attacking by diving on them? [&:]
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

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Nice Avatar Elf
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: TheElf
Bounce implies surprise. Use your imagination as to how many different ways you can surprise your opponent, and it doesn't have to be with an altitude or energy advantage. There are varying degrees of bounces.

That said, Having an altitude advantage does increase the likelihood of a bounce occurring, as the most favorable potion to achieve a bounce is from above and unobserved.

Altitude advantage is a separate bonus that essentially modifies MVR values for at least the first round of combat and in some cases more, depending on Pilot EXP and several rolls. This advantage can be prolonged or fumbled, but in cases where it works in concert with a BOUNCE it can be extremely deadly. This concept is not unprecedented in history.


Believe I said that, Elf. But if "bounce" implies "surprise", and the side gaining the "bounce" is at a higher altitude, shouldn't they be coming down to take advantage of the "surprise". It still makes no sense for the side being "surprised" to have to climb to meet the attacker when they don't know the attacker is there (they're being surprised, right?).

If you spot the enemy, and he doesn't see you, you close in to take advantage of it don't you? If he's above you, you try to come up from below and behind to keep him from spotting you until you are in position to attack; and if you are above him you try to put yourself between your target and the sun and dive on him. When the side with the altitude advantage starts the combat, shouldn't it take place at the altitude of the defender? Why should he get the advantage of having the combat take place at his chosen altitude instead of that of the A/C he's attacking by diving on them? [&:]
You are correct Mike, but your beef is with the Old code. This did not change in AE.
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RE: The tojo as uber.....

Post by jwilkerson »

ORIGINAL: TheElf
I am going to Florida....

Well then, it must be true that one plus one is greater than two!!! [:D]
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