I was sent this WARNING.....

[Lomri]

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

We have enigma day here *nods* NEVER FORGET ENIGMA !!!!!!
[/quote]

NEVER FORGET ER GR ZA TE RA YQ END TRANSMISSION

[chesmart]

I think I just replicated what frank did with a standard cheating Tool. Will pass the info to MichealM as well. Btw I do not play PBEM so you guys are safe.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: USS America
Take your hatred and filth elsewhere. Your infantile games have worn our your welcome here, troll!

Yer right on this one, USS Mike. I was on the fence earlier, but I'm decided now. Green button on.

[frank1970]

ORIGINAL: Lomri

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

We have enigma day here *nods* NEVER FORGET ENIGMA !!!!!!

NEVER FORGET ER GR ZA TE RA YQ END TRANSMISSION
[/quote]

exactly!

[Dan Nichols]

The news and information in this thread is disturbing.

[nashvillen]

GREEN BUTTON = GOOD

[frank1970]

ORIGINAL: nashvillen



GREEN BUTTON = GOOD

red button better [:D]

[mdiehl]

You claim the Red Tails trained for three years - please provide proof.

Because as far as I am aware, the 99th Flying Pursuit Squadron was activated in March 1941. The Tuskegee Flight School was only established in June 1941 and Pre-Flight stage training (mechanics, physics of flights, aeronautics, deflection shooting, thinking in 3D) only commenced in July 1941.

Primary Pilot Training started in September 41, while Basic Pilot Training started in November 1941, with Advanced Pilot Training starting in January 1942. The first class graduated on 6 March 1942 - after being in training for 9 months (the standard USAAF training period, with each stage - Pre Flight, Primary Pilot (65 hrs), Basic Pilot (70 hrs) and Advanced Pilot Training (80 hours) lasting 9 weeks each, for a total of 36 months). Please note that these aviation cadets graduated with around 215 hours' flight experience (the USAAF required at least 200 hours' flight time to graduate).

The proof is in your own post. It's one of the reasons why no one takes you seriously. Your basic flaw here is to assume that USAAF pilots were immediately deployed to combat on graduation. That is, of course, incorrect.

Contrast this with Imperial Japanese naval aviators who graduated with 500 hours' flight experience. Not a single one of the Japanese pilots at Pearl Harbor had logged less than 600 hours' flying time, some flight leaders had logged 1500 hours.

There's no question that Japanese pilots were well trained. Indeed, the main point of my observation is that in the REAL world, qua WitP, intensive training really does lead to better A2A combat capability, regardless of combat experience.

The 99th Flying Pursuit Squadron was only at full strength in August 1942 as they waited for more pilots to graduate. The 90th FPS was declared combat-ready on 15 September 1942 - they then, after a struggle to get a combat posting, was deployed to North Africa in April 1943.

Where they spent the better part of another 6 months flying training missions. You can figure about 400-500 hours per pilot air time before they flew against an enemy fighter. It was one of the reasons why the 99th PG was so very good against veteran luftwaffe pilots.

Now, July 1941 to April 1943 (assuming the first graduates - of whom there weren't enough to fill a squadron - trained consistently from graduation in March 1942 to April 1943, which is unlikely given the general lack of resources the Tuskegee training centre suffered from - they had almost 2,000 men on base with only two training squadrons) I make as 21 months.

I stand corrected. Only note, however, that they certainly had many hundreds of hours more logged air time than the mere basic requirements required, owing to the general reluctance of the USAAF to deploy them to active fronts.

Also bear in mind that during their deployment in North Africa, and later Sicily, they were utilised exclusively in a ground attack capacity. Not sure they had much chance to brush up on their air-to-air skill?

Immaterial. At least from my POV. Combat experience is only about 1/3 of the battle vis a vis ability. The rest is airplane familiarization. After all, despite the general dearth of air to air combat prior to the Anzio landings, they were superior to their opposition from the outset.

What I am trying to diminish is the credibility of your argument, firstly, that they had three years' training (please prove this) and, secondly, that they were the finest squadron in the USAAF (again, please prove this).

"Finest" is such a wonderfully imprecise term. It is well that I did not use it. They had they best operational record in the USAAF and were simply better than their opfor from the outset.

Why are you so interested in claiming that they weren't an outstanding unit, or that their training did not matter? Was it because they were black?

[CT Grognard]

I made no personal attacks on you. Why do you persist in trying to label me as a racist?

They had they best operational record in the USAAF

What exactly do you base this claim on? I would love to see comparables?

I refer you back to this line from my original response to you:

I am not trying to diminish the great gallantry of the Tuskegee Airmen, who were an inspiration for surmounting the incredible obstacles that were placed in front of them at all times.

To answer you bluntly, is it because they were black? No, not at all.

I just like people to substantiate their claims.

For example, let's take the 357th Fighter Group, VIII Fighter Command - the Yoxford Boys. This group flew over 300 missions from Feb 44 to Apr 45, and is officially credited with 595.5 German kills in the air and 106.5 aircraft destroyed on the ground - an average of just over 2.25 kills per mission.

Their own casualties amounted to 128 P-51s shot down in combat, with sixty pilots KIA or MIA.

It's very hard to compare, but the 332nd Fighter Group (the Red Tails) also flew just over 300 combat missions (albeit for the Fifteenth Air Force based in Italy). They destroyed 261 German aircraft for the loss of 66 pilots KIA.

Which of these two groups has the best "operational record in the USAAF"?

The Red Tails did have a very good record of protecting USAAF bombers, losing only 25 bombers during their tour. So the Red Tails were good at protecting bombers. The Yoxford Boys were good at killing German fighters. Which one has the "best operation record in the USAAF"?

[CT Grognard]

No. 617 Squadron RAF had really high-experience pilots with absolutely fantasic LowG skill.

[frank1970]

Starting 1939 till 1945 JG 52 shot down over 11000 allied and soviet planes, loosing 600 pilots .
Just for comparison.

[CT Grognard]

There is absolutely no substitute for combat experience, as any veteran will tell you.

Training is vital, and can make a massive difference.

But once you get out there and somebody is actively trying to kill or maim you, you better learn quick. And there are some things you can only learn in combat, and not in training.

Yes, the IJN pilots sweeped the floor with Allied pilots in the early months of the war. This was because of the massive differential in experience - IJN pilots had 1000 flight hours compared to USAAF pilots with 200-300 hours, for example.

But as soon as Allied pilots were exposed to combat - those that survived learnt the lessons that could ONLY be learnt when facing hostiles, and they adapted. Prolonged exposure to combat made the Allied pilots catch up very quickly to the Japanese pilots.

The same applies to JG 52. Most of those pilots had combat experience in the Spanish Civil War. They then flew against inexperienced Polish pilots in September 1939, and then in May 1940 British and French pilots were almost no match.

But the Battle of Britain was one of attrition that broke the back of the Luftwaffe's fighter corps. Too many experienced pilots were lost, either killed or captured when having to bail out over enemy territory.

[Nikademus]

Your being trolled CT. Save yourself the effort. Diehl is only here for that purpose. He's never owned or played WitP in 10+ years. Fair warning.

[Erkki]

ORIGINAL: Frank

Starting 1939 till 1945 JG 52 shot down over 11000 allied and soviet planes, loosing 600 pilots .
Just for comparison.

"Oh but you know, they were GERMANS, the records were probably all manufactured and propaganda!" [;)]

PS. I'm currently reading Helmut Lipfert's Diaries(Das Tagebuch des Hauptmann Lipfert). He describes the air battles(hundreds of them in this book!) in great detail. In egoism he gets close to Rüdel but at least he realized how lucky he was. On and on. Just like the other top aces.

[JohnDillworth]

I don't think any more good can come out of this thread. Someone please lock it. If Matrix finds a problem, let us know. If it's fixed, let us know. I'm out of here. I am going to a thread where the gentlemen hang out.

[Commander Stormwolf]

There is absolutely no substitute for combat experience, as any veteran will tell you.

Training is vital, and can make a massive difference.

But once you get out there and somebody is actively trying to kill or maim you, you better learn quick. And there are some things you can only learn in combat, and not in training.

Yes. It is. Explains how 303 squadron did well in hurricanes and some RAF squadrons did badly in spitfires.

But if we were truly smart, South Africa would have never fallen to the savages.. [:(]

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

He doesn't like Germans. Propably a dumb racist.
But who cares?

At least some of us do like Germans. I love Germans, but I couldn't eat a whole one. [:'(]

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: Historiker

He doesn't like Germans. Propably a dumb racist.
But who cares?

At least some of us do like Germans. I love Germans, but I couldn't eat a whole one. [:'(]

Nice [:)]
I love the fact that we don't shoot each other any more...

[USSAmerica]

I made no personal attacks on you. Why do you persist in trying to label me as a racist?

CT, he persists because he is as much of a troll as there has ever been around here. He can't help his childish impulses and he's not self aware enough to even notice.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

There is absolutely no substitute for combat experience, as any veteran will tell you.

Training is vital, and can make a massive difference.

But once you get out there and somebody is actively trying to kill or maim you, you better learn quick. And there are some things you can only learn in combat, and not in training.

Yes. It is. Explains how 303 squadron did well in hurricanes and some RAF squadrons did badly in spitfires.

But if we were truly smart, South Africa would have never fallen to the savages.. [:(]

Warspite1

Goodness...you really are a twat aren't you?