Physical Only ?

[Mynok]

There will be a European distribution point early next year. Hopefully the shipping will be less onerous for the overseas. Not sure that helps the down unders.

[aspqrz02]

At least all we have to consider is the additional mailing costs ... there are no customs duties or sales taxes on imports under $1000 as the gummint (sensibly, for once) did their sums and found that it would cost more to check and determine whether duties were collectable and/or collect those duties than they'd get back for items under that amount ... at least that's the way it is at present, and will remain that way until Gerry Harvey and his rent-seeking retail store pals get it changed to benefit their 19th century ripoff business model with their inflated prices.

I toyed with getting it shipped to my remailer who, typically, can get 50-60% discount on the shipping charges lazy sellers (and RPG and Computer Game sellers mostly qualify, I have no idea whether Matrix does) accept from Fedex/DML etc. ... but since the shipping was only $45 extra on top of the $111 for the game, and I'd been prepared to pay c. $150 for the game, it was not worth it ... $9 shipping to the remailer, $8.50 handling charge by them, and, maybe, $20-25 for shipping ... almost the same amount as Matrix charges.

Since I don't have any objection, per se, to having the books ... and, though I use my iPad for reading a fair bit these days, I still prefer books that can be propped open and thumbed through for RPGs and Computer Games, I don't mind the actual physical shipment, even though I am playing the game (or fiddling with it, more correctly) right now. Of course, the fact that the shipping charges are ALL that an Aussie customer will pay extra adds certainty, whereas other non-US customers have real problems that I appreciate.

Still, it's a crazy business model from Matrix.

Phil

[goulash]

ORIGINAL: goulash

OK having looked into it, as a UK player, I am unfortunately not going to buy this game simply due to the shipping cost of 3 books I technically do not need. Sorry Matrix but it is as simple as that. I am not a miser and I have money I throw at games all the time but this one takes it a bit too far IMHO. I agree that the books should be optional and sent at EU shipping prices for EU players.

I no doubt was thinking about the map as my ideal would be a magnetic wall map. But I would like to choose when to get the books as with the Map. I am not going to be forced into paying the current overall price to get the game to mez

Update = I bought it just now [:D][:D][:D] so much for my great stance on the position

[Dorb]

Welcome aboard goul.- Doesn't having additive hobbies suck sometimes![:D]


Guess we should all should be thanking them for allowing the maps to be optional,huh.[X(]

[goulash]

TY and yes my hobby is expensive (should have seen my wifes face when she realised I just paid £100 and then saw the gfx lol. Seriously though I am at a point in my life (just hit 41) and tending to want more than todays mainstream games are able to offer. My 2 lads are 17-18 old now so the get them 2 lvl 85 WOW toons etc has passed and I can now get back into playing games I really like (I did like WOW until it was dummed down and rage kids grew).

I have failed to get them into games such as HOI, Combat Mission etc and have spent a lot of money just buying their trashy games to fill the time void whilst they have been growing up. I am now looking for quite complex games that have a long lasting effect and challenge me. The last time I really enjoyed a main stream game was Silent Hunter 3, so much so I did a bit of work with the Greywolves team in the early days.

I look at it this way, = whilst the niche games are initiall expensive, they do fill the complexity and time consuming aspect I need thus I have told the lads, game buying in general is now dead (they should be out pulling the ladies anyway)and am looking for some deep games just for myself (say about 4 or 5 deep games) and then I will just sit back and wait until it comes to a point where the mainstream devs realise that my generation actually are growing out of the mainstream pow pow stuff and are turning to the good old strategic genre more and more.

That said, X Rebirth is on my list for next week so Command, Naval/Air, this game and X Rebirth will keep me happy for a while and eventually save me money in the long run. I have 2 more games to get to complete the variety factor.

[LargusMeans]

Long time reader/lurker, waiting for this for 10 years now after playing the original beta. Credit card ready, but purchase time and 158.65 CAD? $40+ for shipping for items I don't want or need? No thanks. I'll continue to play VASL.

And yes I own World in Flames The Final Edition, and no I don't want more crap and clutter in my life. Give me the option to buy the game for $111 digital edition and I'm sold. But I am not paying fedex $47 for shipping for a waste of energy, trees and products that will get recycled immediately. Inane stupidity.

Sorry Matrix, I have spent hundreds of dollars on your products, but not this time. Very poor approach when the same message is being told repeatedly, we don't mind paying the cost, but 40% shipping on top, forget it.

[Mynok]

Isn't it quite obvious that their license restricts how they can sell the game? Why do people insist on complaining then? Buy it or don't.

[LargusMeans]

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Isn't it quite obvious that their license restricts how they can sell the game? Why do people insist on complaining then? Buy it or don't.

And as I stated above, I won't.

But a few addition points....

Eric has edited every post he's made, and I can't find where it says that the license restrictions prevent how they sell the game by forcing players to have to get physical copies. From what I remember from his post, all it mentioned was the licensing agreement was that they couldn't sell the game for a lesser price when buying a DD due to it hurting the value of the board game. Most of us have repeatedly stated, that's not what we want.

Secondly, if your paying the same price for the physical copy when you buy the digital copy, how is that any different other then avoiding a 40% surcharge for a product that has nothing to do with the moneys being received by ADG and Matrix?

Lastly, how much did you pay for shipping?

[Greyshaft]

ORIGINAL: LargusMeans

Eric has edited every post he's made, and I can't find where it says that the license restrictions prevent how they sell the game by forcing players to have to get physical copies. From what I remember from his post, all it mentioned was the licensing agreement was that they couldn't sell the game for a lesser price when buying a DD due to it hurting the value of the board game. Most of us have repeatedly stated, that's not what we want

So since when does "what we want" ever become the deciding factor for any company selling a product? I'd love everything I buy to be cheaper with more features and hand delivered to my front door at a time that's convenient for me. Reality says that will never happen for you or for me. INHO Matrix had made a pricing decision that is in line with the premium nature of the intellectual property behind World in Flames. If you want a cheaper product then go and find one and play it instead. Strategic Command maybe? It's a great game but not in the same league as MWiF so I'm sure you can get it for less money

Secondly, if your paying the same price for the physical copy when you buy the digital copy, how is that any different other then avoiding a 40% surcharge for a product that has nothing to do with the moneys being received by ADG and Matrix?

It's not a surcharge - its a DELIVERY charge paid to a non-affiliated freight company for physically DELIVERING the manuals to the location of your choice. Digital Download without manuals is NOT an available option. Now did you want fries with that? (I really sympathise with the guys at Matrix who have to patiently explain this fact of life multiple times).

Lastly, how much did you pay for shipping?

I paid AUD$42 because that's what the freight charge to Sydney is.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: LargusMeans

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Isn't it quite obvious that their license restricts how they can sell the game? Why do people insist on complaining then? Buy it or don't.

Eric has edited every post he's made, and I can't find where it says that the license restrictions prevent how they sell the game by forcing players to have to get physical copies. From what I remember from his post, all it mentioned was the licensing agreement was that they couldn't sell the game for a lesser price when buying a DD due to it hurting the value of the board game. Most of us have repeatedly stated, that's not what we want.

Of course he hasn't said it. Heard of NDA? But it is easy to deduce why they won't do for this game what they have done for every other game. And I am fine with it. I hope the shipping issues get resolved for non-US soon.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

ORIGINAL: LargusMeans
Eric has edited every post he's made, and I can't find where it says that the license restrictions prevent how they sell the game by forcing players to have to get physical copies. From what I remember from his post, all it mentioned was the licensing agreement was that they couldn't sell the game for a lesser price when buying a DD due to it hurting the value of the board game. Most of us have repeatedly stated, that's not what we want

...If you want a cheaper product then go and find one and play it instead. Strategic Command maybe? It's a great game but not in the same league as MWiF so I'm sure you can get it for less money

Can you actually read or did you simply choose to ignore what he wrote?

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Mynok
But it is easy to deduce why they won't do for this game what they have done for every other game.

If it is so easy to deduce I think we've have heard a convincing reason by now. The argument "can't sell d/d only because that would cannibalize board game sales" makes zero sense, because it is the paper fetishists that want the books that would be more likely to buy the board game. a minimum price makes sense, although not very clear why they couldn't have set the d/d price at that level, or sell the hard copy and d/d at the same price (which would also provoke complaints). So I don't think that it is very easy to deduce.

[jerrystead]

ORIGINAL: WIF_Killzone

IMHO, I think its a class act to publish a hardcopy, I have often looked forward to purchasing a game only to find a cd/dvd/download contained in a giant box. I will happily pay the $199 (my guess) to have it, and the maps, bonus. Can't buy class, your born with it.

"The more you pay for utter crap the more you'll appreciate it." - Iain McNeil

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Fleming

It's crazy.
I just spoke to my colleague who has a sister living in Washington; maybe I'll order and send the manuals to her place. It's almost winter I'm sure she has a fireplace somewhere

After six pages of this thread I still can't see a coherent, let alone convincing, argument for there not being a same-price d/d only release. There would be no devaluation in anything. The alleged superiority of the printed page over a .pdf is opinion, not fact. All that is necessary is just not to mail the manuals. Throw them in the trash. Donate them to Fleming's colleague's sister as firelighters. Even keep them in stock to cut down on costs of the next print run (radical, huh?).

Personally, I'm hanging on either till a more sensible method of distribution to the UK is found, or for the direct download only option U-turn I fully expect to see as soon as Slitherine/Matrix think they can get away with without pissing too many people off. The 'people who have already paid' argument against doesn't hold as exactly the same will apply to future shipping of the manuals from within Europe. As with the weekly deals, keep banging away long enough and it will hopefully sink in.

Keep the paper manuals, I don't want the bloody things - let alone a map I don't even have room to unfold.

As the man says, crazy. [X(]

[bairdlander2]

As I stated,resolve this issue by having the books optional.Also a discount if the buyer does not want the books.Simple.

[brian brian]

It is just so ... mind-boggling is the best term I have read so far. The customer is always right.... except...

Or - the 20th century called to say it's coming over to your next gaming night.

[radic202]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

ORIGINAL: Fleming

It's crazy.
I just spoke to my colleague who has a sister living in Washington; maybe I'll order and send the manuals to her place. It's almost winter I'm sure she has a fireplace somewhere

After six pages of this thread I still can't see a coherent, let alone convincing, argument for there not being a same-price d/d only release. There would be no devaluation in anything. The alleged superiority of the printed page over a .pdf is opinion, not fact. All that is necessary is just not to mail the manuals. Throw them in the trash. Donate them to Fleming's colleague's sister as firelighters. Even keep them in stock to cut down on costs of the next print run (radical, huh?).

Personally, I'm hanging on either till a more sensible method of distribution to the UK is found, or for the direct download only option U-turn I fully expect to see as soon as Slitherine/Matrix think they can get away with without pissing too many people off. The 'people who have already paid' argument against doesn't hold as exactly the same will apply to future shipping of the manuals from within Europe. As with the weekly deals, keep banging away long enough and it will hopefully sink in.

Keep the paper manuals, I don't want the bloody things - let alone a map I don't even have room to unfold.

As the man says, crazy. [X(]

As per my other thread on the exorbitant shipping costs ( and I am on the same bloody continent where it is being shipped from?) I am going to hold off, such a shame though as I was ready to purchase the New Flashpoint Germany as well and in bolding your second comment, I will hold off that purchase as well.

In the Gaming World, If we can't use our wallets to voice our opinions, then what do we have left?

I remain loyal for now and will continue hoping.

[Jaimainsoyyo]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

ORIGINAL: Fleming

It's crazy.
I just spoke to my colleague who has a sister living in Washington; maybe I'll order and send the manuals to her place. It's almost winter I'm sure she has a fireplace somewhere

After six pages of this thread I still can't see a coherent, let alone convincing, argument for there not being a same-price d/d only release. There would be no devaluation in anything. The alleged superiority of the printed page over a .pdf is opinion, not fact. All that is necessary is just not to mail the manuals. Throw them in the trash. Donate them to Fleming's colleague's sister as firelighters. Even keep them in stock to cut down on costs of the next print run (radical, huh?).

Personally, I'm hanging on either till a more sensible method of distribution to the UK is found, or for the direct download only option U-turn I fully expect to see as soon as Slitherine/Matrix think they can get away with without pissing too many people off. The 'people who have already paid' argument against doesn't hold as exactly the same will apply to future shipping of the manuals from within Europe. As with the weekly deals, keep banging away long enough and it will hopefully sink in.

Keep the paper manuals, I don't want the bloody things - let alone a map I don't even have room to unfold.

As the man says, crazy. [X(]

Amen to that Herston , you are right .

[Challerain]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

The 'people who have already paid' argument against doesn't hold as exactly the same will apply to future shipping of the manuals from within Europe. [X(]

Except that it was made clear at release that there would be a new European warehouse in 1Q14 so people had the ability to wait. There will be a lot of upset people who bought it and paid for the shipping if the policy is changed any time soon.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
So our first thought was how to do justice to this game and give the WIF community something special. The hard-bound volumes, the first hard-bound large full color volumes Matrix Games has ever released, are the first part. The biggest wargame map possibly ever printed is the second part. We feel those are a key part of doing this release right. Removing the hard-bound volumes, even though they are costly to print, would not have resulted in a significantly reduced price due to the time that this was in development. By doing this we actually reduced our profit margin per unit as the planned price point has always been in this range. We decided to add in the manuals and the map pack to make it the best release possible.

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
But if it's not the answer you want............................................. oh well.

well, it's not really that it is not the answer I want, it is just that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It is like a car manufacturer saying that "we think this car only looks good in black, so that's the only color we're going to make". ("You can have any color as long as it is black". That was a great solution...in 1900...

So what next? Matrix determines that player's can't properly enjoy a game without a 40" monitor, so you need to buy one of those too? Or maybe that I can't enjoy a Russian front game unless I'm wearing a fur hat? Give me a break...

Making sense is subjective. I certainly see where they are coming from. So to me, it makes sense.

The any color as long as it's black comment does not. We're not talking how Model Ts went from color choices to one because the black paint dried faster that say, Brewster green, (day and a half vs two weeks.) Nor are we talking about a car that at its height was produced at the rate of 1 every 10 seconds.

The rest is just hyperbole. ( And way back when, I had to buy a CD drive to play TIE Fighter. And a DVD drive for games that required one. So what? It's a hobby.)