Panzers vs The Bear: A WitE2 MP AAR (Soviet Perspective)

[AlbertN]

I barely played WITE because I ditched it quickly after the partisans were a micromanagement issue (One of the selling points of WITE2 for me was the abstraction of Partisans!) and the fact the Soviets were ruling and dominating all the games except the ones by Pelton (Who has disappeared anyhow).

So I do not think it's a WITE mindset dominating players.

To me it just seems that Axis (or the attacker at least) has a bazillion of struggles while the defender falls back to positions, is persistently on good supply, suffers less fatigue, etc.

I do understand that some Axis players toss it at turn 10 if they are in '41 in a '43 situation and have a wall of Soviet forces in front of them ready for the winter and to launch and all out offensive.
That seems the trend at least going by the most of the AAR posted here.

So to me it seems again a matter of 'Soviets on steroids' like the original WITE on launch.

[loki100]

in the end that is your interpretation off a very small sample. A quick wander around the AAR forum will show a number of German wins (both vs AI and HtH).

I do think that unlearning WiTE1 (& indeed many traditional games) is needed - the discussion above about how salients can occur in a linear front line and that you can tip from needing to refit to not being able to refit in a turn. This is new and very hard to judge

I don't mind axis players bailing if the front is bogged down etc, from experience too many bail if they can't easily see how to win by T18.

[AlbertN]

I fully agree that one unit may not fully refit in one turn; and that a rotation is needed in general.

I agree as well that to bail out early is not very respectful. Rather have someone replay T1 or T2 as a game is fresh and time investment is little than to get to T10 or so and see them go.

In general in most East Front games the 'winning part' for German is '42 more so than '41.
I'll check better for the PvP AAR but I saw only one player achieving a streak of wins as Axis.

[OberGeneral]

I played WitE 1 for 7,451.7 hours. Won a few campaigns in 42. played the Bitter End scenario to the point where I had
conquered the entire map but still no victory. My 3rd campaign in WitE 2 I got a Axis Decisive Victory on T29 on Easy
difficulty. I am now playing the campaign on Normal in T15 with 491 VP. I admit that I had some trouble ditching the
WitE 1 mindset during the first few play throughs. I find that playing on Normal difficulty the AI is a quantum leap better
than Easy difficulty. I would hate to try Challenging or Impossible!

[GloriousRuse]

I think that in general WITE2 offers the player with the initiative a lot of freedom to impose his will on his opponent, but that it comes with a far more refined set of challenges. A whole lot of this means that where older games simulated these advantages with crude reflection of combat ability, in WITE2 the opposing sides have unique and asymmetric operational dynamics.

The Germans, for instance, are incredibly dynamic and explosive. Panzers with potential energy are close to impossible to defend against in all but the worst terrain. They can just go so many ways, have some many options, and can inflict crushing results in possibly any option. Hell, even as battering rams they’ll render a prepared early war defense in to little more than routing and tattered formations - granted they can’t play that card too often. They can dominate the soviet decision cycle in every way possible. But taking advantage of that requires far more art than “Panzers, march!”. The Soviets in turn can consistently generate readiness in greater numbers of units than the Germans, and can build up concentrations of strength capable of winning a sustained fight of dedicated, massive, effort - if they can avoid getting pre-empted and fight along a given operational line for months at a time. It isn’t “winters here, now much rocking!”

The net results are that while there is a higher initial onus on the attacker, but as player familiarity with the system develops the attacker starts to become more favored.

Of course, many players jump straight in to a GC 41 with all sorts of options turned on, and pretty quickly set about destroying the cardiovascular system of their army without realizing they’re doing it. In that case, yeah, the Germans are going to look weaker. But having played and won on both sides, I can say that it is not a case of “Soviets are OP, cest la vie”

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

The more I read the more it seems that Master German Player will struggle with basic Soviet player (not newb but basic); so when Master Soviet Player comes into play, the game is brutally one sided.

maybe, I think the issue is that German players have to unlearn WiTE1 and that will take a while. Esp as some will basically just play T1-T10 and if they aren't on the point of a clear victory, vanish from the game.

Soviet players will have to as well, but its a bit less clear cut in 1941 and will really only become obvious 1943+

Soviet player has the advantage in this game for sure, at least that was my take up to two months ago before work took over my life. As Loki100 eluded to the Germans do have to rethink how they will play. Stay the course of WITE1 mentality and suffer the consequences. TIME is not on the Germans side, make what you do as a German count the first time. Anyway, I digress since I am about to start another GC game as Germany.

[GloriousRuse]

HYLA, don’t you have something like four or five games as the Germans where your opponent has conceded before T17?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: GloriousRuse

HYLA, don’t you have something like four or five games as the Germans where your opponent has conceded before T17?

Probably.... you are correct. Just lucky is all.

I still think that the Soviets hold the upper hand. I am not saying it is easy but the longer the game progresses the better the Soviet position becomes if played well. Two equal opponents the Soviets have the edge. But that is just me and I have been gone for 2 months so I could be totally wrong now.

[GloriousRuse]

And I think that brings up one of the biggest differences between WITE and WITE2 that has remained mostly invisible at the moment…the difference between winning the war and winning the game.

The Soviets DO get more powerful as time goes on. If the Germans can’t put away the war in ‘41 or the summer of ‘42, they WILL find the system puts them on the back foot. And you basically need to pull what HYLA did in those games to win the war in ‘41. The advantages will pile up eventually to where the Germans CAN’T win.

The war.

But they can surely still win the game.

We just haven’t seen many people try, because the old WITE1 mentality is holding on - “I didn’t crush the Russians up front, so now I lose it all”. But that’s not really true. The December 44 check means that provided the Germans turn in a competent offensive performance through ‘42, all the onus is on the Russians to deal with the logistics, the readiness burn out, the challenges of attacking, and against a very different sort of defensive foe. The idea that the Soviets are wildly favored is predicated on the idea that you should be able to win the war as the Germans, but that’s WITE1. Between two even players the Germans aren’t expected to win the war - it could hardly be an even semi-accurate simulation if they were - but the ones who stick their guns may very well win the game. We just rarely see this because of the tendency for pushing over the king in the early war.

Add in to that there is an onus on the opening period of play for the Germans to turn in a performance, and the fact that while the German army was at its best in the beginning, players need a dozen turns to hit their stride often, and we start to see where the perception of soviet OP balance comes from. It’s not AlbertN’s beginner-beginner match up where the game even, it’s as intermediate and better players start playing and the Germans won’t fall apart due to unforced errors.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: GloriousRuse

And I think that brings up one of the biggest differences between WITE and WITE2 that has remained mostly invisible at the moment…the difference between winning the war and winning the game.

The Soviets DO get more powerful as time goes on. If the Germans can’t put away the war in ‘41 or the summer of ‘42, they WILL find the system puts them on the back foot. And you basically need to pull what HYLA did in those games to win the war in ‘41. The advantages will pile up eventually to where the Germans CAN’T win.

The war.

But they can surely still win the game.

We just haven’t seen many people try, because the old WITE1 mentality is holding on - “I didn’t crush the Russians up front, so now I lose it all”. But that’s not really true. The December 44 check means that provided the Germans turn in a competent offensive performance through ‘42, all the onus is on the Russians to deal with the logistics, the readiness burn out, the challenges of attacking, and against a very different sort of defensive foe. The idea that the Soviets are wildly favored is predicated on the idea that you should be able to win the war as the Germans, but that’s WITE1. Between two even players the Germans aren’t expected to win the war - it could hardly be an even semi-accurate simulation if they were - but the ones who stick their guns may very well win the game. We just rarely see this because of the tendency for pushing over the king in the early war.

Add in to that there is an onus on the opening period of play for the Germans to turn in a performance, and the fact that while the German army was at its best in the beginning, players need a dozen turns to hit their stride often, and we start to see where the perception of soviet OP balance comes from. It’s not AlbertN’s beginner-beginner match up where the game even, it’s as intermediate and better players start playing and the Germans won’t fall apart due to unforced errors.

Excellent points and well put. I believe you make some very valid points on these