What Book Are You Reading at the moment?

[waltero]

Do audio books count?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: waltero

Do audio books count?

warspite1

Yes waltero, yes they do. [:)]

[AbwehrX]

Has anyone here read this yet? What a pivotal decision in the war. Had the British lost India in 1942, the Middle East might have fallen and Turkey couldve joined the Axis.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: AbwehrX

Has anyone here read this yet? What a pivotal decision in the war. Had the British lost India in 1942, the Middle East might have fallen and Turkey couldve joined the Axis.

warspite1

I haven't, but the title puts me off. How anyone can describe Nagumo's Indian Ocean Raid as the most dangerous moment of the war is totally beyond me. Suppose the Japanese had sunk the Eastern Fleet rather than just an old carrier and a couple of cruisers? What difference would that have made? The Japanese had nothing to back the limited raid up with.

The Doolittle raid would still have happened, the furore that caused in Tokyo would still have happened and the Midway operation - to once and for all get rid of the US Fleet - would have happened.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: AbwehrX

Has anyone here read this yet? What a pivotal decision in the war. Had the British lost India in 1942, the Middle East might have fallen and Turkey couldve joined the Axis.

warspite1

I haven't, but the title puts me off. How anyone can describe Nagumo's Indian Ocean Raid as the most dangerous moment of the war is totally beyond me. Suppose the Japanese had sunk the Eastern Fleet rather than just an old carrier and a couple of cruisers? What difference would that have made? The Japanese had nothing to back the limited raid up with.

The Doolittle raid would still have happened, the furore that caused in Tokyo would still have happened and the Midway operation - to once and for all get rid of the US Fleet - would have happened.

Actually the person who used that phrase was none other than one Winston Spencer Churchill (who was known to exaggerate occasionally for dramatic effect).

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: AbwehrX

Has anyone here read this yet? What a pivotal decision in the war. Had the British lost India in 1942, the Middle East might have fallen and Turkey couldve joined the Axis.

warspite1

I haven't, but the title puts me off. How anyone can describe Nagumo's Indian Ocean Raid as the most dangerous moment of the war is totally beyond me. Suppose the Japanese had sunk the Eastern Fleet rather than just an old carrier and a couple of cruisers? What difference would that have made? The Japanese had nothing to back the limited raid up with.

The Doolittle raid would still have happened, the furore that caused in Tokyo would still have happened and the Midway operation - to once and for all get rid of the US Fleet - would have happened.

Actually the person who used that phrase was none other than one Winston Spencer Churchill (who was known to exaggerate occasionally for dramatic effect).

warspite1

Indeed so, the operative words being 'for dramatic effect', but also bearing in mind that they are being said at the time. No one then knew what was to come, but a book written with hindsight? Perhaps not so clever!

Edit: Two reviews on Amazon so far - both 3/5 stars. Not great.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

I haven't, but the title puts me off. How anyone can describe Nagumo's Indian Ocean Raid as the most dangerous moment of the war is totally beyond me. Suppose the Japanese had sunk the Eastern Fleet rather than just an old carrier and a couple of cruisers? What difference would that have made? The Japanese had nothing to back the limited raid up with.

The Doolittle raid would still have happened, the furore that caused in Tokyo would still have happened and the Midway operation - to once and for all get rid of the US Fleet - would have happened.

Actually the person who used that phrase was none other than one Winston Spencer Churchill (who was known to exaggerate occasionally for dramatic effect).

warspite1

Indeed so, the operative words being 'for dramatic effect', but also bearing in mind that they are being said at the time. No one then knew what was to come, but a book written with hindsight? Perhaps not so clever!

Edit: Two reviews on Amazon so far - both 3/5 stars. Not great.

True. It was just a carrier raid. Japan could not win the war in the Indian Ocean.

[LoungJu]

I'm reading Umberto Eco's *The Name of the Rose* atm. I have deep respect for the author and strongly recommend it to all of you, guys.

[WingedIncubus]

Reading Glantz' Operation Barbarossa.

Next on my eReader are Volumes 6 and 7 of Franz Halder's War Diaries.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Zorch
True. It was just a carrier raid. Japan could not win the war in the Indian Ocean.

True, but the British -and the allies- would have been in really deep trouble had Japan tried to invade India: the Middle East, the oil fields, the Germans were about to start their summer offensive - the Caucasus and Stalingrad (which failed). And let's not forget: before a Midway battle: an intact mighty Kido Butai [;)]

The raid was a classic veni vidi vici. Nagumo was totally free to create a big mess whilst Somerville was literally hiding -the right thing to do if he wanted to avoid annihilation... No doubt Nelson was turning in his grave.

[invernomuto]

Stephen Biddle - "Military Power - Explaining Victory and Defeat in Modern Battles".
Very interesting reading so far.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: Zorch
True. It was just a carrier raid. Japan could not win the war in the Indian Ocean.

True, but the British -and the allies- would have been in really deep trouble had Japan tried to invade India: the Middle East, the oil fields, the Germans were about to start their summer offensive - the Caucasus and Stalingrad (which failed). And let's not forget: before a Midway battle: an intact mighty Kido Butai [;)]

The raid was a classic veni vidi vici. Nagumo was totally free to create a big mess whilst Somerville was literally hiding -the right thing to do if he wanted to avoid annihilation... No doubt Nelson was turning in his grave.

warspite1

The raid was far from classic - it achieved nothing of strategic importance, but simply helped in the whittling down of a finite - but precious - resource; the men of the naval air arm.

As for the British being in deep trouble, that depends on what the Japanese could bring to the party. Over-burdened in China, still needing to keep at least a wary eye on the Soviets, the Japanese were not exactly endowed with an embarrassment of riches (spare troops).

[Jagdtiger14]

Paul Krugman is definitely a waste of time. Speaking of time:

As for the Indian Ocean raid...that was a waste of not only resources and men, but of time as well. If only they had sunk the HMS Warspite, then perhaps...?[:D]

An Indian Ocean strategy would have been the best idea Japan could have come up with...in coordination with Axis Med strategy (early-mid '41?).
1. DOW CW/France/Neth, but not US (no Pearl Harbor)
2. Stop at Port Moresby in the SE. Later, if US not at war, then New Caledonia?
3. Indian Ocean initial objectives: Sri Lanka (Ceylon), Madagascar, Horn of Africa (Italian terr.).
4. Diplomacy concerning India (nationhood)
5. Assuming Axis have taken Gib/Malta and are advancing into Egypt (perhaps trying to outflank it in Syria - Sinai)...Japan can try to stop CW coming around S. Africa and threaten Egypt from the Red Sea. Perhaps even using Italian troops stuck south of Sudan.

[TulliusDetritus]

My sources say 7 planes lost during the Trincomalae raid, none when the Cornwall, Dorsetshire and later the Hermes were sunk and 4 during the Colombo raid. Well, I guess the Pearl Harbor raid was also a defeat, eh, they lost 29 planes or crews that could not fight later

As for Krugman, you can't be serious [:)] A Nobel Prize winner, one of the most respected economists... You're simply not interested about political economy. Fair enough, but don't blame him.

[warspite1]

Not sure why the need for sarcasm or the rather silly 'Pearl Harbor raid was also a defeat' but you've rather missed the point.

The Indian Ocean Raid achieved nothing from a strategic point of view - but did use up fuel, placed more wear and tear on five fleet carriers of the KB and more strain on the pilots - who had been in operation for 6 months practically solid by the time of Midway - and for which there was not exactly a steady stream of replacements was there?

The Kido Butai was an enormously powerful asset, it had plenty to occupy itself with in the Pacific without wasting time and effort in the Indian Ocean.

As for Krugman, yes perfectly serious. Look at some of the past winners of the Nobel Prize - you think winning one is a guarantee of anything? The guy likens the world economy to a baby-sitting club. The respect for him as an economist is hardly universal....

[warspite1]

Anyway, let's agree to disagree on Krugman as this will only end up political and I would prefer this book thread not be locked.

[wings7]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Anyway, let's agree to disagree on Krugman as this will only end up political and I would prefer this book thread not be locked.

Yes Indeed! [:)]

Patrick

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

The Indian Ocean Raid achieved nothing from a strategic point of view - but did use up fuel, placed more wear and tear on five fleet carriers of the KB and more strain on the pilots - who had been in operation for 6 months practically solid by the time of Midway - and for which there was not exactly a steady stream of replacements was there?

The Kido Butai was an enormously powerful asset, it had plenty to occupy itself with in the Pacific without wasting time and effort in the Indian Ocean.

As for Krugman, yes perfectly serious. Look at some of the past winners of the Nobel Prize - you think winning one is a guarantee of anything? The guy likens the world economy to a baby-sitting club. The respect for him as an economist is hardly universal....

Well, the raid in fact achieved two things: the Royal Navy would not be interfering with the Japanese operations in Burma... And second, they would abandon the Indian Ocean, withdrawing to Eastern Africa... One less threat, guess what, that's what the Japanese high command wanted back in the spring of 1942.

"The respect for him [Krugman] as an economist is hardly universal...."

I hope you are talking about trained economists... And above all, I hope a certain Niall Ferguson (the Census thing) is not on the picture.

If you don't read him, your loss. I agree, let's stick to books [:)]

[AbwehrX]

An Indian Ocean strategy would have been the best idea Japan could have come up with...in coordination with Axis Med strategy (early-mid '41?).
1. DOW CW/France/Neth, but not US (no Pearl Harbor)
2. Stop at Port Moresby in the SE. Later, if US not at war, then New Caledonia?
3. Indian Ocean initial objectives: Sri Lanka (Ceylon), Madagascar, Horn of Africa (Italian terr.).
4. Diplomacy concerning India (nationhood)
5. Assuming Axis have taken Gib/Malta and are advancing into Egypt (perhaps trying to outflank it in Syria - Sinai)...Japan can try to stop CW coming around S. Africa and threaten Egypt from the Red Sea. Perhaps even using Italian troops stuck south of Sudan.

I always do something similar to this in World in Flames. [:D]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: warspite1

The Indian Ocean Raid achieved nothing from a strategic point of view - but did use up fuel, placed more wear and tear on five fleet carriers of the KB and more strain on the pilots - who had been in operation for 6 months practically solid by the time of Midway - and for which there was not exactly a steady stream of replacements was there?

The Kido Butai was an enormously powerful asset, it had plenty to occupy itself with in the Pacific without wasting time and effort in the Indian Ocean.

As for Krugman, yes perfectly serious. Look at some of the past winners of the Nobel Prize - you think winning one is a guarantee of anything? The guy likens the world economy to a baby-sitting club. The respect for him as an economist is hardly universal....

Well, the raid in fact achieved two things: the Royal Navy would not be interfering with the Japanese operations in Burma... And second, they would abandon the Indian Ocean, withdrawing to Eastern Africa... One less threat, guess what, that's what the Japanese high command wanted back in the spring of 1942.

"The respect for him [Krugman] as an economist is hardly universal...."

I hope you are talking about trained economists... And above all, I hope a certain Niall Ferguson (the Census thing) is not on the picture.

If you don't read him, your loss. I agree, let's stick to books [:)]

warspite1

I have read him [&:] as per my earlier post.

One less threat, guess what, that's what the Japanese high command wanted back in the spring of 1942.

Why have you missed out that what the Japanese really wanted was the destruction of the Eastern Fleet?

The fact was (and fair enough the Japanese could not know this) the Royal Navy in 1942 was never going to be a threat in the Indian Ocean because a) it was having to fight in the Arctic, the North Atlantic, the South Atlantic, the Southern Indian Ocean and the Mediterranean and just did not have the ships to spare to put together a balanced, sensible fleet in the Far East b) the bases were not up to the job - that was what Singapore was supposed to be for....

By the way you said Somerville was 'literally hiding'. That is not what actually happened was it? Quite the reverse, both his 'old tarts' and the Fast Division were at sea hoping to catch Nagumo in a night battle but (probably fortunately) by the time the Japanese arrived the Fleet had turned west to refuel and replenish.