India is on the agenda but I have decided to delay it a little while in favour of an overland campaign aimed at Saigon and Palembang.
India can wait to some extent
Re China I am more or less keeping China quiet if I attack all bets are off that s the deal with PZB but he isnt really in a position to do much about it at present so I may consider re opening the theatre
Andy Mac v PZB ....The Allies Fight Back
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
RE: Plan red: China problem
Hi Andy.. Im really new and so only have initial impressions of land warfare in SE Asia.. that impression being everything moves slow as hell. When you say overland to Saigon..do you mean form Southern China I assume? Can you post a map (if it isnt too much trouble) of the situation down there. I think that is a good plan really.. at this stage and in this context, it cant be something he is expecting.
RE: Plan red: China problem
Re China I am more or less keeping China quiet if I attack all bets are off that s the deal with PZB but he isnt really in a position to do much about it at present so I may consider re opening the theatre
Don't you think it would be a little unfair to have the benefit of not losing China in the early years of the war only to use it to kick PzB when he's down now? This sort of thing is one of the reasons I prefer a no-holds barred game. At least then there's no question that whatever the other person does is fair game since the whole aim IS to kick the other person while they are down...
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
-
Kereguelen
- Posts: 1454
- Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 9:08 pm
RE: Plan red: China problem
ORIGINAL: Nemo121
Re China I am more or less keeping China quiet if I attack all bets are off that s the deal with PZB but he isnt really in a position to do much about it at present so I may consider re opening the theatre
Don't you think it would be a little unfair to have the benefit of not losing China in the early years of the war only to use it to kick PzB when he's down now? This sort of thing is one of the reasons I prefer a no-holds barred game. At least then there's no question that whatever the other person does is fair game since the whole aim IS to kick the other person while they are down...
Problem is that PzB uses China as his "training" ground. IMHO this is the main reason for Andy's problems in the Bonins (other reason is that PzB is a true master of WITP naval warfare). The "ground-training" seriously unbalances this game (combined with the limited numbers of Hellcats and trained Navy pilots available). Basically Andy needs to close the training grounds asap.
But once PzB receives Shindens, Andy will be toast anyway. It will be impossible for him to counter lots of Shindens with experienced pilots. PzB will not only have better pilots but simply outproduce the Allies.
RE: Plan red: China problem
Im not sure China training is "unfair"... in the game, the Japanese player in particular is given a lot of lee way to change what Japan really did in the war.. for example, realize how crap the Oscar is and switch production and upgrades to fighters that are worth something..Tonies for example. Well..one thing the game doesnt allow Japan to do is to realize that the war is going to be more than a few months so that they need to have a training program that produces..you know..pilots at a rate of more than 10 a month. To me its no different than the Allied player holding off all offensives until he receives F6Fs.. in RL this would be not feasible for political and technical reasons. One you couldnt simply admit to the general public that your equipment is inferior, two, until the F6F was put into combat you wouldnt "know" that it was going to be a war winner. Plenty of aircraft failed to live up to their promise and naval commanders simply couldnt say to the civilian leadership "well..we think next year our new fighter will be a better match...so we are just going to run and hide til then".
Ive seen a lot of agonizing over the China-training..but if you grant that Japan could change everything else..why not that one particular fact?
Ive seen a lot of agonizing over the China-training..but if you grant that Japan could change everything else..why not that one particular fact?
RE: Plan red: China problem
Lets be clear this was never a no holds barred game and China was a live theatre in the air when I took the game over it was only when I was able to upgrade to P40N's when I shouldnt have - at that point we agreed to stand down the air war in China. (I withdrew Chinese fighter sqns and when they returned they were P40N's because no I16's were in the pool) this was unfair so I shut down the Chinese AF giving PZB a free hand.
BUT I now own all of Malaya and have AF's in range of China so why shouldnt I try to shut down his training bases ?
I will keep land forces quiet unless he starts something.
My advance on Saigon would come via Bankok from forces in Malaya.
Nemo in a no holds barred game I would agree with you but this was never that type of game if it was I would be using air mining, I would be basing B29's on lvl 4 AF's, I would be massing heavy bombers for night raids, I would be stacking my carriers into impenetrable deathstars and landing 4,000 AV onto Iwo in a single day.
None of these I have done. PZB did not attack China by land after he realised how crap land combat was and how easy it would be to starve China by resource bombing recognising it was far too easy to knock China out of the war as he had done India. Which is a decison I respect - after my I16's upgraded in an impossible way I stopped my China AF which I think was also correct but to let that stand when I own all of Malaya and have paid in blood to attrit his AF over Iwo seems a little off.
Now I am happy to discuss this and have initiated discussions with PZB on the subject
lol Shindens and Reppu I am willing to bet he can produce hundreds of them !!!! I get P51D's which I can equip 5 Sqns with and 3 of those are 3 months away !!!!
BUT I now own all of Malaya and have AF's in range of China so why shouldnt I try to shut down his training bases ?
I will keep land forces quiet unless he starts something.
My advance on Saigon would come via Bankok from forces in Malaya.
Nemo in a no holds barred game I would agree with you but this was never that type of game if it was I would be using air mining, I would be basing B29's on lvl 4 AF's, I would be massing heavy bombers for night raids, I would be stacking my carriers into impenetrable deathstars and landing 4,000 AV onto Iwo in a single day.
None of these I have done. PZB did not attack China by land after he realised how crap land combat was and how easy it would be to starve China by resource bombing recognising it was far too easy to knock China out of the war as he had done India. Which is a decison I respect - after my I16's upgraded in an impossible way I stopped my China AF which I think was also correct but to let that stand when I own all of Malaya and have paid in blood to attrit his AF over Iwo seems a little off.
Now I am happy to discuss this and have initiated discussions with PZB on the subject
lol Shindens and Reppu I am willing to bet he can produce hundreds of them !!!! I get P51D's which I can equip 5 Sqns with and 3 of those are 3 months away !!!!
RE: Plan red: China problem
My issue with China training is not the ability to produce 55 - 60 xp pilots I have no real issue with that.
They pay in supply and ops losses and need to take groups out of the line its a little fast but I can live with that if Japanese player restricted themselves to say 60xp and only performed it in China and not on cut off remnants so that they can keep fighter reserves near the front and in training I for one would whinge a lot less.
My issue is the 65 70 75 and 80 xp aces that are produced in massive numbers allied to PDU I think we may well find this makes the game impossibel to play as the allies especially when every single base will have level 9 forts no matter if its a sandbar in the middle of the Ocean.
We are only now beginiing to see the real problems that occur in late war as more competative games get this far.
They pay in supply and ops losses and need to take groups out of the line its a little fast but I can live with that if Japanese player restricted themselves to say 60xp and only performed it in China and not on cut off remnants so that they can keep fighter reserves near the front and in training I for one would whinge a lot less.
My issue is the 65 70 75 and 80 xp aces that are produced in massive numbers allied to PDU I think we may well find this makes the game impossibel to play as the allies especially when every single base will have level 9 forts no matter if its a sandbar in the middle of the Ocean.
We are only now beginiing to see the real problems that occur in late war as more competative games get this far.
RE: Plan red: China problem
I can see your point. I would bet that in the future new house rules would be made stipulating to what level Japan can train its pilots in China or (in my PBEM game) the Phillipines. I guess the debate now would be to what level it should be allowed. You mention 55 to 60.. I agree that 80 isnt appropriate.. I would think 60 or 65 is reasonable.
Like you mentioned, its sort of uncharted territory now so I suppose this AAR will spawn a few new house rules or at least self imposed guidelines.
Like you mentioned, its sort of uncharted territory now so I suppose this AAR will spawn a few new house rules or at least self imposed guidelines.
RE: Plan red: China problem
OK this has turned out a little more controversial than I thought
[font=arial]Its like this with Shinden and Reppu on the horizon as Keregulen said [/font][font=arial] I cannot afford my 30xp pilots to be taking on 70xp vets from china ground attack training and in case you are wondering about 50% of all USN carrier pilots are now sub 40xp[/font]
[font=arial] [/font]
[font=arial]I am producing 120 F4U1D’s and 144 Hellcats a month and 60 trained navy pilots I am willing to bet that PZB is more that doubling that in Zekes alone never mind other air[/font]
[font=arial] [/font]
[font=arial]Its crap but I should have at least 2,200 Hellcats in my pool just now and there is no way I should be getting 30xp pilots for my carriers we play the game we are given - this needs to be fixed the USN should not be this strapped for pilots my Ops losses cannot keep up with my Navy pilot losses.[/font]
[font=arial] [/font]
[font=arial]Its like this with Shinden and Reppu on the horizon as Keregulen said [/font][font=arial] I cannot afford my 30xp pilots to be taking on 70xp vets from china ground attack training and in case you are wondering about 50% of all USN carrier pilots are now sub 40xp[/font]
[font=arial] [/font]
[font=arial]I am producing 120 F4U1D’s and 144 Hellcats a month and 60 trained navy pilots I am willing to bet that PZB is more that doubling that in Zekes alone never mind other air[/font]
[font=arial] [/font]
[font=arial]Its crap but I should have at least 2,200 Hellcats in my pool just now and there is no way I should be getting 30xp pilots for my carriers we play the game we are given - this needs to be fixed the USN should not be this strapped for pilots my Ops losses cannot keep up with my Navy pilot losses.[/font]
[font=arial] [/font]
RE: Plan red: China problem
I don't know when or how many the Japanese get but I cannot sit and wait China has been quiet because my planes upgraded do I just sit back and let PZB train 2,000 pilots in 3 months when all I will get is 180 navy pilots someone tell me this is ok and I will back off I dont see how I can let his training ramp back up
RE: Plan red: China problem
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/29/45
Pilot training recommences [:@][:@]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kweiyang , at 41,35
Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 27
No Japanese losses
Runway hits 9
Aircraft Attacking:
24 x A6M5 Zeke bombing at 2000 feet
3 x A6M5 Zeke bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kweiyang , at 41,35
Japanese aircraft
D4Y Judy x 167
B5N Kate x 26
B6N Jill x 18
B7A Grace x 88
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 36
Ki-102a Randy x 12
No Japanese losses
Airbase hits 12
Runway hits 128
Aircraft Attacking:
36 x Ki-45 KAIc Nick bombing at 2000 feet
27 x B7A Grace bombing at 10000 feet
27 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
24 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
26 x B7A Grace bombing at 9000 feet
21 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
10 x Ki-102a Randy bombing at 2000 feet
9 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
27 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
27 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
23 x B5N Kate bombing at 9000 feet
23 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
16 x B6N Jill bombing at 9000 feet
16 x B7A Grace bombing at 9000 feet
16 x B7A Grace bombing at 9000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 9000 feet
2 x Ki-102a Randy bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B6N Jill bombing at 9000 feet
3 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B7A Grace bombing at 9000 feet
3 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Chungking , at 43,32
Japanese aircraft
C6N1-S Myrt x 27
Ki-102a Randy x 27
Ki-46-III Dinah x 3
No Japanese losses
Airbase hits 3
Runway hits 25
Aircraft Attacking:
24 x Ki-102a Randy bombing at 2000 feet
24 x C6N1-S Myrt bombing at 2000 feet
3 x C6N1-S Myrt bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-102a Randy bombing at 2000 feet
OK I torch Rangoon its hit hard apart from that a crowning achievement to the campaign as Shokaku sinks to the bottom of the Ocean
That needs to be it my Groups are shattered and need to be reformed so I am going to withdraw and reform
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rangoon , at 29,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 13
Allied aircraft
P-38J Lightning x 19
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 5 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 1 destroyed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rangoon , at 29,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 7
Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 12
Japanese aircraft losses
C6N1-S Myrt: 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 2 damaged
Runway hits 4
Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rangoon , at 29,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 6
Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 127
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 6 destroyed
Ki-67 Peggy: 11 destroyed
L3Y Tina: 8 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 10 destroyed
J1N1-S Irving: 7 destroyed
C6N1-S Myrt: 4 destroyed
H8K Emily: 9 destroyed
Ki-46-III Dinah: 1 destroyed
P1Y Frances: 2 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 4 damaged
Japanese ground losses:
57 casualties reported
Airbase hits 16
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 137
Aircraft Attacking:
12 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
7 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Koepang , at 28,77
Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 27
No Allied losses
Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 21
Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Morotai , at 43,68
Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk III x 3
P-38J Lightning x 8
B-25J Mitchell x 44
Allied aircraft losses
B-25J Mitchell: 5 damaged
Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 5
Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
17 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Hollandia , at 49,79
Allied aircraft
F6F-5N Hellcat x 8
Hurricane II x 9
No Allied losses
Runway hits 1
Aircraft Attacking:
8 x F6F-5N Hellcat bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Sansapor , at 44,74
Allied aircraft
Boomerang II x 9
Beaufort V-IX x 13
P-40N Warhawk x 11
A-26B Invader x 12
No Allied losses
Runway hits 3
Aircraft Attacking:
10 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 15000 feet
5 x A-26B Invader bombing at 15000 feet
4 x A-26B Invader bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 15000 feet
3 x A-26B Invader bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Bonin , at 65,52
Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 13
F6F Hellcat x 5
F4U-1 Corsair x 16
F4U-1D Corsair x 60
SB2C Helldiver x 12
F6F-5N Hellcat x 15
TBM Avenger x 24
Allied aircraft losses
SB2C Helldiver: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged
TBM Avenger: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged
Japanese Ships
CA Chokai, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
Japanese ground losses:
47 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Port fuel hits 1
Aircraft Attacking:
4 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBM Avenger bombing at 10000 feet
7 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
2 x TBM Avenger bombing at 10000 feet
3 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
6 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBM Avenger bombing at 10000 feet
4 x F6F-5N Hellcat bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Bonin , at 65,52
Allied aircraft
P-51D Mustang x 36
No Allied losses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Truk , at 63,78
Allied aircraft
Liberator VI x 9
F-5C Lightning x 3
P-61A Black Widow x 3
PB4Y Liberator x 5
B-24J Liberator x 19
No Allied losses
Japanese ground losses:
35 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Airbase hits 5
Runway hits 21
Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Liberator VI bombing at 15000 feet
7 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Liberator VI bombing at 15000 feet
2 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Liberator VI bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Jaluit , at 81,84
Allied aircraft
P-61A Black Widow x 7
No Allied losses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 55th Division, at 81,84
Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 18
P-40N Warhawk x 20
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
9 x P-40N Warhawk bombing at 2000 feet
11 x P-40N Warhawk bombing at 2000 feet
9 x F4U-1D Corsair bombing at 2000 feet
9 x F4U-1D Corsair bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 118th IJNAF Base Force, at 23,34
Allied aircraft
Liberator VI x 6
No Allied losses
Japanese ground losses:
10 casualties reported
Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Liberator VI bombing at 10000 feet
3 x Liberator VI bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 128th Ind.Mixed Brigade, at 82,63
Allied aircraft
PB4Y Liberator x 44
B-24J Liberator x 12
B-29 Superfortress x 58
No Allied losses
Japanese ground losses:
143 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 1000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 1000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 1000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
4 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
5 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
2 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
4 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
8 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 1000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 1000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 1000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 16th Division, at 82,63
Allied aircraft
PB4Y Liberator x 15
B-29 Superfortress x 12
No Allied losses
Japanese ground losses:
81 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Aircraft Attacking:
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 1000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 1000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 1000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
2 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
2 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
2 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kure 2nd SNLF, at 23,44
Allied aircraft
Beaufighter VIC x 14
No Allied losses
Japanese ground losses:
10 casualties reported
Aircraft Attacking:
14 x Beaufighter VIC bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 65,50
Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 4
J2M Jack x 3
Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 36
F6F Hellcat x 51
F4U-1D Corsair x 16
Corsair IV x 7
SB2C Helldiver x 22
Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 30 destroyed
J2M Jack: 18 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 10 destroyed
F6F Hellcat: 7 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 2 damaged
Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 12, on fire, heavy damage
Aircraft Attacking:
4 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Iwo Jima at 63,53
Allied aircraft
TBM Avenger x 15
Allied aircraft losses
TBM Avenger: 1 damaged
Japanese Ships
AK Fukuyo Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Toyu Maru
AK Yamazato Maru, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Daishu Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
Aircraft Attacking:
3 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 66,51
Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 4
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 7
Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 36
F6F Hellcat x 56
F4U-1D Corsair x 6
Corsair IV x 7
F6F-5N Hellcat x 3
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 4 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 3 destroyed
Allied Ships
CV Hornet, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Marcus Island at 75,56
Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 13
Allied aircraft
F6F Hellcat x 9
F4U-1D Corsair x 5
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 13 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F6F Hellcat: 6 damaged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rangoon , at 29,34
Allied aircraft
P-38J Lightning x 9
No Allied losses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Miri , at 31,57
Allied aircraft
P-38J Lightning x 3
No Allied losses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 18th/A Division, at 52,81
Allied aircraft
F-5C Lightning x 1
No Allied losses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 18th/A Division, at 52,81
Allied aircraft
F-5A Lightning x 1
No Allied losses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 15th Base Force, at 81,84
Allied aircraft
F-5C Lightning x 1
No Allied losses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Iwo Jima at 63,53
Allied aircraft
TBM Avenger x 13
Allied aircraft losses
TBM Avenger: 3 damaged
Japanese Ships
AP Kizan Maru
AP Maya Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
AP Kuraido Maru
Aircraft Attacking:
1 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 66,51
Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 15
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 6
Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 40
F6F Hellcat x 47
F4U-1 Corsair x 16
F4U-1D Corsair x 43
Corsair IV x 7
F6F-5N Hellcat x 41
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 15 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 4 destroyed
Allied Ships
CV Bon Homme Richard
CVL Bataan, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Wake Island
Allied Shock attack
Attacking force 37036 troops, 216 guns, 280 vehicles, Assault Value = 319
Defending force 12244 troops, 38 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 161
Allied max assault: 390 - adjusted assault: 496
Japanese max defense: 91 - adjusted defense: 41
Allied assault odds: 12 to 1
Japanese ground losses:
558 casualties reported
Allied ground losses:
55 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Vehicles lost 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Iwo Jima
Allied Bombardment attack
Attacking force 6940 troops, 169 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1142
Defending force 101368 troops, 710 guns, 498 vehicles, Assault Value = 1592
Japanese ground losses:
42 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Andaman Island
Allied Shock attack
Attacking force 1245 troops, 10 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 44
Defending force 1368 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 17
Allied max assault: 52 - adjusted assault: 3
Japanese max defense: 11 - adjusted defense: 3
Allied assault odds: 1 to 1
Japanese ground losses:
30 casualties reported
Allied ground losses:
4 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Pilot training recommences [:@][:@]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kweiyang , at 41,35
Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 27
No Japanese losses
Runway hits 9
Aircraft Attacking:
24 x A6M5 Zeke bombing at 2000 feet
3 x A6M5 Zeke bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kweiyang , at 41,35
Japanese aircraft
D4Y Judy x 167
B5N Kate x 26
B6N Jill x 18
B7A Grace x 88
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 36
Ki-102a Randy x 12
No Japanese losses
Airbase hits 12
Runway hits 128
Aircraft Attacking:
36 x Ki-45 KAIc Nick bombing at 2000 feet
27 x B7A Grace bombing at 10000 feet
27 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
24 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
26 x B7A Grace bombing at 9000 feet
21 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
10 x Ki-102a Randy bombing at 2000 feet
9 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
27 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
27 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
23 x B5N Kate bombing at 9000 feet
23 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
16 x B6N Jill bombing at 9000 feet
16 x B7A Grace bombing at 9000 feet
16 x B7A Grace bombing at 9000 feet
3 x B5N Kate bombing at 9000 feet
2 x Ki-102a Randy bombing at 2000 feet
3 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B6N Jill bombing at 9000 feet
3 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B7A Grace bombing at 9000 feet
3 x D4Y Judy bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Chungking , at 43,32
Japanese aircraft
C6N1-S Myrt x 27
Ki-102a Randy x 27
Ki-46-III Dinah x 3
No Japanese losses
Airbase hits 3
Runway hits 25
Aircraft Attacking:
24 x Ki-102a Randy bombing at 2000 feet
24 x C6N1-S Myrt bombing at 2000 feet
3 x C6N1-S Myrt bombing at 2000 feet
3 x Ki-102a Randy bombing at 2000 feet
OK I torch Rangoon its hit hard apart from that a crowning achievement to the campaign as Shokaku sinks to the bottom of the Ocean
That needs to be it my Groups are shattered and need to be reformed so I am going to withdraw and reform
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rangoon , at 29,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 13
Allied aircraft
P-38J Lightning x 19
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 5 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 1 destroyed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rangoon , at 29,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 7
Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 12
Japanese aircraft losses
C6N1-S Myrt: 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 2 damaged
Runway hits 4
Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rangoon , at 29,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 6
Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 127
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 6 destroyed
Ki-67 Peggy: 11 destroyed
L3Y Tina: 8 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 10 destroyed
J1N1-S Irving: 7 destroyed
C6N1-S Myrt: 4 destroyed
H8K Emily: 9 destroyed
Ki-46-III Dinah: 1 destroyed
P1Y Frances: 2 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 4 damaged
Japanese ground losses:
57 casualties reported
Airbase hits 16
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 137
Aircraft Attacking:
12 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
7 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Koepang , at 28,77
Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 27
No Allied losses
Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 21
Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Morotai , at 43,68
Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk III x 3
P-38J Lightning x 8
B-25J Mitchell x 44
Allied aircraft losses
B-25J Mitchell: 5 damaged
Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 5
Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
17 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Hollandia , at 49,79
Allied aircraft
F6F-5N Hellcat x 8
Hurricane II x 9
No Allied losses
Runway hits 1
Aircraft Attacking:
8 x F6F-5N Hellcat bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Sansapor , at 44,74
Allied aircraft
Boomerang II x 9
Beaufort V-IX x 13
P-40N Warhawk x 11
A-26B Invader x 12
No Allied losses
Runway hits 3
Aircraft Attacking:
10 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 15000 feet
5 x A-26B Invader bombing at 15000 feet
4 x A-26B Invader bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 15000 feet
3 x A-26B Invader bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Bonin , at 65,52
Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 13
F6F Hellcat x 5
F4U-1 Corsair x 16
F4U-1D Corsair x 60
SB2C Helldiver x 12
F6F-5N Hellcat x 15
TBM Avenger x 24
Allied aircraft losses
SB2C Helldiver: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged
TBM Avenger: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged
Japanese Ships
CA Chokai, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
Japanese ground losses:
47 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Port fuel hits 1
Aircraft Attacking:
4 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBM Avenger bombing at 10000 feet
7 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
2 x TBM Avenger bombing at 10000 feet
3 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
6 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBM Avenger bombing at 10000 feet
4 x F6F-5N Hellcat bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Bonin , at 65,52
Allied aircraft
P-51D Mustang x 36
No Allied losses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Truk , at 63,78
Allied aircraft
Liberator VI x 9
F-5C Lightning x 3
P-61A Black Widow x 3
PB4Y Liberator x 5
B-24J Liberator x 19
No Allied losses
Japanese ground losses:
35 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Airbase hits 5
Runway hits 21
Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Liberator VI bombing at 15000 feet
7 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Liberator VI bombing at 15000 feet
2 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Liberator VI bombing at 15000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Jaluit , at 81,84
Allied aircraft
P-61A Black Widow x 7
No Allied losses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 55th Division, at 81,84
Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 18
P-40N Warhawk x 20
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
9 x P-40N Warhawk bombing at 2000 feet
11 x P-40N Warhawk bombing at 2000 feet
9 x F4U-1D Corsair bombing at 2000 feet
9 x F4U-1D Corsair bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 118th IJNAF Base Force, at 23,34
Allied aircraft
Liberator VI x 6
No Allied losses
Japanese ground losses:
10 casualties reported
Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Liberator VI bombing at 10000 feet
3 x Liberator VI bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 128th Ind.Mixed Brigade, at 82,63
Allied aircraft
PB4Y Liberator x 44
B-24J Liberator x 12
B-29 Superfortress x 58
No Allied losses
Japanese ground losses:
143 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 1000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 1000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 1000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
4 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
5 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
2 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
4 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
8 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 1000 feet
3 x B-24J Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 1000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 1000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 16th Division, at 82,63
Allied aircraft
PB4Y Liberator x 15
B-29 Superfortress x 12
No Allied losses
Japanese ground losses:
81 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Aircraft Attacking:
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 1000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 1000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 1000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
2 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
2 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
2 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
3 x PB4Y Liberator bombing at 1000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kure 2nd SNLF, at 23,44
Allied aircraft
Beaufighter VIC x 14
No Allied losses
Japanese ground losses:
10 casualties reported
Aircraft Attacking:
14 x Beaufighter VIC bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 65,50
Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 4
J2M Jack x 3
Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 36
F6F Hellcat x 51
F4U-1D Corsair x 16
Corsair IV x 7
SB2C Helldiver x 22
Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 30 destroyed
J2M Jack: 18 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
FM-2 Wildcat: 10 destroyed
F6F Hellcat: 7 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 2 damaged
Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 12, on fire, heavy damage
Aircraft Attacking:
4 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
9 x SB2C Helldiver bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Iwo Jima at 63,53
Allied aircraft
TBM Avenger x 15
Allied aircraft losses
TBM Avenger: 1 damaged
Japanese Ships
AK Fukuyo Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Toyu Maru
AK Yamazato Maru, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Daishu Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
Aircraft Attacking:
3 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 66,51
Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 4
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 7
Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 36
F6F Hellcat x 56
F4U-1D Corsair x 6
Corsair IV x 7
F6F-5N Hellcat x 3
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 4 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 3 destroyed
Allied Ships
CV Hornet, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Marcus Island at 75,56
Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 13
Allied aircraft
F6F Hellcat x 9
F4U-1D Corsair x 5
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 13 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F6F Hellcat: 6 damaged
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rangoon , at 29,34
Allied aircraft
P-38J Lightning x 9
No Allied losses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Miri , at 31,57
Allied aircraft
P-38J Lightning x 3
No Allied losses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 18th/A Division, at 52,81
Allied aircraft
F-5C Lightning x 1
No Allied losses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 18th/A Division, at 52,81
Allied aircraft
F-5A Lightning x 1
No Allied losses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 15th Base Force, at 81,84
Allied aircraft
F-5C Lightning x 1
No Allied losses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Iwo Jima at 63,53
Allied aircraft
TBM Avenger x 13
Allied aircraft losses
TBM Avenger: 3 damaged
Japanese Ships
AP Kizan Maru
AP Maya Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
AP Kuraido Maru
Aircraft Attacking:
1 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBM Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 66,51
Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 15
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 6
Allied aircraft
FM-2 Wildcat x 40
F6F Hellcat x 47
F4U-1 Corsair x 16
F4U-1D Corsair x 43
Corsair IV x 7
F6F-5N Hellcat x 41
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 15 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 4 destroyed
Allied Ships
CV Bon Homme Richard
CVL Bataan, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Wake Island
Allied Shock attack
Attacking force 37036 troops, 216 guns, 280 vehicles, Assault Value = 319
Defending force 12244 troops, 38 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 161
Allied max assault: 390 - adjusted assault: 496
Japanese max defense: 91 - adjusted defense: 41
Allied assault odds: 12 to 1
Japanese ground losses:
558 casualties reported
Allied ground losses:
55 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Vehicles lost 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Iwo Jima
Allied Bombardment attack
Attacking force 6940 troops, 169 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1142
Defending force 101368 troops, 710 guns, 498 vehicles, Assault Value = 1592
Japanese ground losses:
42 casualties reported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Andaman Island
Allied Shock attack
Attacking force 1245 troops, 10 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 44
Defending force 1368 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 17
Allied max assault: 52 - adjusted assault: 3
Japanese max defense: 11 - adjusted defense: 3
Allied assault odds: 1 to 1
Japanese ground losses:
30 casualties reported
Allied ground losses:
4 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
-
jolly_pillager
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:35 pm
RE: Plan red: China problem
I am not sure that that's a good idea at this time.
The sad and simple fact is that PzB can recover from his losses far far more quickly than you can.
If you let off now to rebuild all you will be doing is going from a level playing field of untrained pilots thrown into combat back to a Japanese reserve of thousands of trained pilots while the USN will not have recovered a fraction of this amount...you will be in even harder straights next attack as a result.
The pressure on his airforces MUST be maintained...he cannot be allowed the breathing room to place large numbers of aircraft on so called training.
As you youself pointed out...180 vs. 2000+ trained pilots in 3 months is simply unacceptable...your kill rate isn't high enough to deal with that. You can of course use Chinese based air to deteriorate his "training" to some extent...but it will be easier for those P-40's to do their work if the best fighter units are fighting you in the Pacific instead of flying escort in China.
Also do not underestimate the pressure that can be put on his industries by constant heavy attrition...he surely has large stockpiles of HI, oil, and resources at this time...the best way to burn through these is to force his factories to go at full blast replacing losses.
The key to absolute air superiority over the Home Islands in the second half of '45 (allowing a strat bombing campaign that might even the score a little) is to keep his aircrew quality on the ropes now.
Anyways...enough preaching for now [;)]
Just remember that backing off for a breather is much better for him than it is for you...and will be as long as hundreds of pilots can bomb Chinese bases and become aces doing it.
The sad and simple fact is that PzB can recover from his losses far far more quickly than you can.
If you let off now to rebuild all you will be doing is going from a level playing field of untrained pilots thrown into combat back to a Japanese reserve of thousands of trained pilots while the USN will not have recovered a fraction of this amount...you will be in even harder straights next attack as a result.
The pressure on his airforces MUST be maintained...he cannot be allowed the breathing room to place large numbers of aircraft on so called training.
As you youself pointed out...180 vs. 2000+ trained pilots in 3 months is simply unacceptable...your kill rate isn't high enough to deal with that. You can of course use Chinese based air to deteriorate his "training" to some extent...but it will be easier for those P-40's to do their work if the best fighter units are fighting you in the Pacific instead of flying escort in China.
Also do not underestimate the pressure that can be put on his industries by constant heavy attrition...he surely has large stockpiles of HI, oil, and resources at this time...the best way to burn through these is to force his factories to go at full blast replacing losses.
The key to absolute air superiority over the Home Islands in the second half of '45 (allowing a strat bombing campaign that might even the score a little) is to keep his aircrew quality on the ropes now.
Anyways...enough preaching for now [;)]
Just remember that backing off for a breather is much better for him than it is for you...and will be as long as hundreds of pilots can bomb Chinese bases and become aces doing it.
RE: Plan red: China problem
IMHO, reopening China theatre at this time and in this way, might be seen as kind of opportunitism and not too fair. The Allies should have better way to deal with the difficulties.
RE: Plan red: China problem
Hi Andy.. I dont think its really contraversial..its just that people look at it differently. Its clear that as the war goes on the US should be getting more and more pilots per month. It should accelerate. 150 or so in 1942.. 200 in early 43, 250 in late 43, a jump to 400 in early 44, etc. Probably also with the number of planes.
In the game of "I wish", ideally there would be a kind of meter the allied player could control. The meter would show how well the war in Europe was going, and then could decide what percentage of material is used on the Pacific war (thereby adjusting his own production). Allocate too little to Europe one would start to "lose" there and there would be consequences.. maybe recalled ships, planes, or army units. Allocate enough there to get the job done quickly, you could get a big production boost in 44 and 45..
I totally agree you shouldnt be having to use untrained 30xp pilots. Maybe you and Pzb should have a talk about it. If your pilots are going to be 30s..then perhaps in an admission this is a fault in the game (that hasnt been play tested this late in the war) he would agree to curtail his training to some degree. Maybe not completely.. I would argue that in fact you have been taking casualties at a higher rate than the US at this point in the war so the number of trained pilots would have suffered..but I would also argue that the US, with its mentality, simply wouldnt have sent off 30xp pilots to the war...
A big part of the problem is overly deadly A2A I think. And Im not sure how players can adjust to that.
Final note.. you might be overestimating how much training he is getting done. I know in my own case (and Im no where near the player he is admittedly) its not the level people have mentioned in this thread..
Sorry to be a pain.. Im still new and this discussion is a good way for me to think all this stuff through. I appreciate it!
In the game of "I wish", ideally there would be a kind of meter the allied player could control. The meter would show how well the war in Europe was going, and then could decide what percentage of material is used on the Pacific war (thereby adjusting his own production). Allocate too little to Europe one would start to "lose" there and there would be consequences.. maybe recalled ships, planes, or army units. Allocate enough there to get the job done quickly, you could get a big production boost in 44 and 45..
I totally agree you shouldnt be having to use untrained 30xp pilots. Maybe you and Pzb should have a talk about it. If your pilots are going to be 30s..then perhaps in an admission this is a fault in the game (that hasnt been play tested this late in the war) he would agree to curtail his training to some degree. Maybe not completely.. I would argue that in fact you have been taking casualties at a higher rate than the US at this point in the war so the number of trained pilots would have suffered..but I would also argue that the US, with its mentality, simply wouldnt have sent off 30xp pilots to the war...
A big part of the problem is overly deadly A2A I think. And Im not sure how players can adjust to that.
Final note.. you might be overestimating how much training he is getting done. I know in my own case (and Im no where near the player he is admittedly) its not the level people have mentioned in this thread..
Sorry to be a pain.. Im still new and this discussion is a good way for me to think all this stuff through. I appreciate it!
RE: Plan red: China problem
I agree. Simply none has played this far. So essentially this is not a normal game anymore. It has become the "training ground" of the entire WITP community. We can safely predict some house rules revision would be widely adopted based on lessons learned here. So a good and fair game is highly expected. Cheer up!
RE: Plan red: China problem
ORIGINAL: Zeke
IMHO, reopening China theatre at this time and in this way, might be seen as kind of opportunitism and not too fair. The Allies should have better way to deal with the difficulties.
But it is fair, that China can be put out of the war so easily?
Obviously you cannot imagine the problem:
PzB produces thousands of planes and trains his boys in China (which Andy left alone after he got too good fighters, very fair of PzB, really) while Andy is stuck with some phantasy production which is about 20% of what the US really produced. Tell us please, how one should handle that difficulty.
If you like what I said love me,if you dislike what I say ignore me!
"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"
"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"
RE: Plan red: China problem
The problem is there is no right answer.
If I do nothing PZB will simply retrain his pilots and he will have 2,000+ elite pilots again plus the Shinden/Reppu while I am stuck with 30xp pilots and 180 trained navy pilots.
The game just does not work.
We closed down China purely because of my planes upgrading when they should not have done so. It was right and proper - PZB was keeping supplies low in China trying to keep me below 20,000 and he was managing it BUT by a quirk of the game I got P40N's so we had a discussion and PZB got a free hand in China.
Remember when I took on the game China was quiet on the ground but it was active in the air - it was only because of the game quirk that we shut it down.
Now having said all of that I recognise the accusation of opportunism that has been levelled at me.
The real question is if PZB knew I was going to do this would he have thrown as many trained pilots at me over Iwo - is it fair after he has destroyed his AF to not allow him to at least partiallly rebuild.
I guess had I told him 4 weeks ago that I was considering this then that would have been reasonable as it stands it is perhaps unreasonable - the fact that the allies are screwed on airframes and pilots should not affect the inherant unfairness of a 7 14 or even 28 day deadline in these circumstances.
So I am going to propose the following to PZB.
1. I will not interfere with training with Chinese based aircraft until 1st March
2. I will not use US or RAF aircraft in China at all until 1st April.
That should allow PZB to replenish at least some of the pilots he perhaps would not have thrown at Iwo had he known this was my intention.
Does that sound reasonable ?
Andy
As of 1st march
If I do nothing PZB will simply retrain his pilots and he will have 2,000+ elite pilots again plus the Shinden/Reppu while I am stuck with 30xp pilots and 180 trained navy pilots.
The game just does not work.
We closed down China purely because of my planes upgrading when they should not have done so. It was right and proper - PZB was keeping supplies low in China trying to keep me below 20,000 and he was managing it BUT by a quirk of the game I got P40N's so we had a discussion and PZB got a free hand in China.
Remember when I took on the game China was quiet on the ground but it was active in the air - it was only because of the game quirk that we shut it down.
Now having said all of that I recognise the accusation of opportunism that has been levelled at me.
The real question is if PZB knew I was going to do this would he have thrown as many trained pilots at me over Iwo - is it fair after he has destroyed his AF to not allow him to at least partiallly rebuild.
I guess had I told him 4 weeks ago that I was considering this then that would have been reasonable as it stands it is perhaps unreasonable - the fact that the allies are screwed on airframes and pilots should not affect the inherant unfairness of a 7 14 or even 28 day deadline in these circumstances.
So I am going to propose the following to PZB.
1. I will not interfere with training with Chinese based aircraft until 1st March
2. I will not use US or RAF aircraft in China at all until 1st April.
That should allow PZB to replenish at least some of the pilots he perhaps would not have thrown at Iwo had he known this was my intention.
Does that sound reasonable ?
Andy
As of 1st march
RE: Plan red: China problem
The real question is if PZB knew I was going to do this would he have thrown as many trained pilots at me over Iwo - is it fair after he has destroyed his AF to not allow him to at least partiallly rebuild.
i am not sure this computes... [&:]
The (imo: flawed) game mechanics allow him to build up a force of trained pilots and good planes that in actual events the Japanese could never hope to possess... he used these to savage your forces and now is left with little - which is what he should have had in the first place. He got a free ride based on the game mechanics, and now people are crying foul that you are not allowing him a second free ride. [8|]
RE: Plan red: China problem
Have to agree.....the "training" method of bombing bases makes a mockery of the in-built training mission which was calibrated specifcially to conform to RL practices. While some exp gain via ground attack is unavoidable (for example, in my game with Rroberson, i have much of my Commonwealth airforce fighter/fighter bombers on ground support missions attacking Japanese troop concentrations in support of my own forces pushing into Burma.....something that was one of their primary jobs there in RL), one should not be bombing bases specifically to build exp. Japan's RL problem (and Germany's) was lack of resources to maintain a pilot cadre under attrition warfare.
RE: Plan red: China problem
I have to agree here.......as mostly a Jap player.......I never use on map training in this fashion....becuase it does exploit the game Mech.........PzB was allowed to do it once.....why should he be allowed to do it again?.......but as always...esp. in late war games.......the key is to talk things over with your opp.........ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
The real question is if PZB knew I was going to do this would he have thrown as many trained pilots at me over Iwo - is it fair after he has destroyed his AF to not allow him to at least partiallly rebuild.
i am not sure this computes... [&:]
The (imo: flawed) game mechanics allow him to build up a force of trained pilots and good planes that in actual events the Japanese could never hope to possess... he used these to savage your forces and now is left with little - which is what he should have had in the first place. He got a free ride based on the game mechanics, and now people are crying foul that you are not allowing him a second free ride. [8|]