Matrix do something with this nonsense...

[Sardaukar]

It's close to suicidal to engage KB with US Carriers before they have their 7/42 and 10/42 upgrades (squadron sizes and big flak upgrades). And it's not wise to go after whole KB before 1943 since US suffers from big coordination penalties when having more than 2 flattops in same TF. 2-3 carrier TFs with 2 CVs each following first one may work, but there is always chance one may use reaction move even when set to 0. That'd suck too.

[Miller]

Nikmod is a must for this game[&o]

[AmiralLaurent]

I think Yamamoto will have been unhappy about the result of the Midway battle too....

By the way WITP is War in the Pacific, not "World War II in the the Pacific" (WWIIITP). Too much things differ from historical results to call it a simulation. In fact you can't simulate 90% of the war correctly. But it is still fun (not the day you lose 5 CVs, OK, but don't complain, they will be replaced)

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: Miller

Nikmod is a must for this game[&o]

Aye...or youi could try CHS 2.08 Experimental air mod. It's lot like Nik's and works quite nicely too.

[racndoc]

I also noticed a problem with overpowered AAA in CHS 2.07 Nik Mod that ended a campaign game last week. I almost think that the stacking of base units is worse than stacking AAA units for antiaircraft effects.

If the Allies merely retreat all their base units and AAA units that begin the game in Malaya to Singapore they can mass 6 AAA units and 9 base units there. My typical air strike against Singapore would be 120-140 Sallys/Helens/Nells/Bettys at 16,000 ft and with casualties of 35-45% per strike I would only score 4-6 runway hits at Singapore and maybe destroy 1-2 AC on the ground.

My opponent was able to base all his 4E and 2E bombers at Singapore with NO CAP and with no fear of damage from japanese level bombers. The Allies were then able to counterstrike all my damaged bombers(damaged from attacking Singapore) on the ground and kill 20-30 per turn.

After I lost most of my level bombers by Jan. 1942(I never accumulated more than 10% airbase damage at Singapore even though I was using virtually the entire 2E bomber force in an attempt to suppress it) i brought this to my opponents attention.

My opponent then withdrew 8 base units to Palembang and left the MAF base unit and the 6 AAA units in Singapore. Immediately, the japanese 2E bombers were able to inflict reasonable damage at Singapore(20-30 hits) with reasonable casualties. More importantly, the Allies were forced to actually fly some CAP and were eventually compelled to withdraw their bombers from Singapore.

The AAA effects are even worse with port attacks. After the Allies withdrew the 6 AAA units to Palembang to reinforce the 8 base units I ordered a port attack just to show my opponent how lethal AAA was.....the Japanese suffered 72 casualties out of 92 Nells and 14 casualties out of 18 Bettys.

Meanwhile, I stacked 3 AAA units with a base unit at Kuching and Khota Bharu and the Allies would regularly bomb at 6000 ft with minimal casualties and inflict tremendous base damage.

I really enjoyed the A2A aspects of the Nik mod but I think you need house rules for AAA stacking.....maybe 3 AAA units and and 3 base units per hex.

[Sardaukar]

Yes, AA is murderous. In Exp-mod it's not as powerful as in Nik-mod. I think it was 50 % increase in Nik and 40 % in Exp.

[Nikademus]

It sounds like Andrew didn't reduce the HAA in the SRA. Your description sounds like the situation Rob Brennon and his PBEM partner brought to my attention during an early Nikmod 5.0-6.0 game. They too reported over the top AA in the SRA. This was caused by the overstacking of ENG units due to the Japanese advance, coupled with the abstracted replacement of destroyed devices via generic supply, coupled with the quick repair of the starting disabled %'s set for Allied LCU's.

The result was "flak cities" in the SRA at such places as Singapore and Manila. They wern't invulnerable as long as the Jap player attacked at the highest altitudes but losses still remained substantial. (Ironically, this led to Speedy taking the PI's last bastion at around the historical surrender date in our game [:D])

To fix this, i reduced all HAA in the SRA by 75% and moved the production of replacement HAA guns two months into the game in order to prevent replacement of the removed devices by the game's supply/replacement routine. Post 5.0 games in the SRA are now much less murderous to the Japanese and they thus have their "Happy time" when their lightly protected bombers could fight the war as they did in China, including their patented strafing tactics by Zeros. It was only in 42 at places like Lunga and Midway that the Japanese learned the hard way that their light bombers and fighters wern't nearly as effective when confronted with a modern equipped and prepped base with radar directed AA guns.

really enjoyed the A2A aspects of the Nik mod but I think you need house rules for AAA stacking.....maybe 3 AAA units and and 3 base units per hex.

Yep....the design philosophy on my part was that it was better to have a situation where you could overstack and be too powerful (but which could be corrected simply by employing common sense house rules, essential anyway for a historical feeling game), vs. the situation in stock where no matter what you did stack wise, your AA was still useless leading to the 24/7 attacks @ 6000 feet shutting down airbases in 1-2 turns.

[Przemcio231]

Yach Guest maybe we will swith sides[:D] But still this game Stock A2A sucks as the only outcome of a Big CV Battle here is "Mariana's Turkey Shoot" for one of the Sides. Come on looking at this game you might think That the Outcome's of Coral Sea and Midway were some Miracles and they were not. The Other Thing Jap CV Armor!!!! come on Those Carriers were not Immune to 500 Lb's[:D] witch is nonsense...  Yes i experienced the same thing Playing Willie where he stacekd Lots of AAA and Base Forces in his Bases and i could not tuch them[:D] i think the best solution would be Nik Changes to A2A and lets say 20% increase of AAA Power[:)] But the A2A model is not the only game flow, other are Teleporting Units , Smal Fragment of Paras droped on a hex blocking movement of Few Divisions , Lack of Indian Army Units , Small Parafragment's taking a City , Possibility to starve China with Jap Startegy bombing... and so on and on.... Well i think i will give Nik Mode another shoot[:D]

[Sardaukar]

In my CHS game against Aztez (Scen 160, Exp Air mod) I haven't seen flak being too murderous. It's dangerous, but I still hit Singapore, Clark and Manila without taking *too* heavy losses. Low level port attacks can be dangerous, though.

For example:

Day Air attack on Singapore , at 22,51

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 54
G4M1 Betty x 54

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 1 destroyed, 18 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 30 damaged


Allied ground losses:
262 casualties reported
Guns lost 5

Airbase hits 8
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 33

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
15 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
13 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
13 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
7 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
11 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
2 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
6 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
3 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet
2 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
2 x G4M1 Betty bombing at 15000 feet
2 x G3M Nell bombing at 15000 feet

[Mike Scholl]

The problem is a simple on of design screw-up. Look at the size of the first Japanese Airstrike. It contains 325 of the less than 200 A/C that Kido Butai could launch in a single strike. (Check Pearl Harbor, check Midway, check anything you want---Japanese CV's launched approximately HALF of their airgroups in a "Strike" because that's all that could be prepared and spotted for launch at one time.). The numbers swamp the defending CAP and Flak. Then toss in the "every man an ace" pilot skills, and the Allies are generally hamburger. Just correcting this one factor would at least give the Allies a fighting chance.

[tsimmonds]

Excellent point Mike, based on their doctrine and the technical limits of their hardware, no IJN CV should never be able to contribute more than 50% of its a/c to any one strike wave.

[Sardaukar]

From Andrews page:

Experimental A2A variant: This variant has modified scenario data, especially for aircraft, in an attempt to reduce the "bloodiness" of air-to-air combat, as well as some other "experimental" changes. The purpose of this scenario variant is to allow testing of these changes in an in-game environment. Specifically, the following data changes are applied:

• The starting experience values of all Allied pilots has been decreased by 10%, except for USN pilots.
• The starting experience values of all USN and Japanese pilots has been decreased by 5%.
• The Zero bonus has been removed (this is compensated for by the larger reduction in Allied pilot experience).
• The durability values of all fighter aircraft, including float fighters, night fighters and fighter-bombers are increased by 60%.
• The durability values of all other aircraft are increased by 40%.
• The effect rating of all AA/DP weapons has been increased by 30%.
• The maximum speed value range has been compressed by halving the difference between actual aircraft max speed and a centre point of 350 MPH.
• The accuracy of all air launched torpedoes - Japanese and Allied - has been reduced by 25% (ship and sub launched torpedo accuracy is unchanged).

Thus, AA is not as severe as in Nik-mod, but severe enough to cause trouble when over-doing one's air attacks.

[Przemcio231]

Well that's a good Point.  I would also love to See Garrison Requirements in Every Jap Captured Base so Japan will be somewhat Limited in further Expansion.

[Przemcio231]

Is this Exp. Mode Playable???

[RevRick]

Heavens forfend.. It's the IJN Death Star again..

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

The problem is a simple on of design screw-up. Look at the size of the first Japanese Airstrike. It contains 325 of the less than 200 A/C that Kido Butai could launch in a single strike. (Check Pearl Harbor, check Midway, check anything you want---Japanese CV's launched approximately HALF of their airgroups in a "Strike" because that's all that could be prepared and spotted for launch at one time.). The numbers swamp the defending CAP and Flak. Then toss in the "every man an ace" pilot skills, and the Allies are generally hamburger. Just correcting this one factor would at least give the Allies a fighting chance.

All very true... but USN was much worse than that in 1942... [;)]



Leo "Apollo11"

[Przemcio231]

Well from what i rember they were sending all their airgroups into a strike....

[Guest]

What wrong is in this battle??
All TF reacted, distance 4 hexes.
Przemcio carriers - only 161 bombers attacked with very bad escort (max 1:4 to my CAP).
My carriers attakcs - 368 bombers with good escort (54->83).
My Zeros didn't stop his bomber. His fighters didn't stop my bombers. But my bombers were more and they had torpedos.
My TF's had BB, Przemcios TF doesn't.
My TF's were stronger than his.
My Zeros had very good pilots. I had more than 80 aces at naval pilots many at carriers. Przemcio hasn't aces at naval pilots.
Sorry but this battle was absolutly normal.

Przemcio lost India. We must change this.
Przemcio lost his carriers. It's sucks. We must change this also.
At last he lost his surface fleet... [:D] Maybe surface battles are also wrong??
But when he won carriers battle - all were ok. Link again:

tm.asp?m=1248479

[ChezDaJez]

Well that's a good Point. I would also love to See Garrison Requirements in Every Jap Captured Base so Japan will be somewhat Limited in further Expansion.

There are certainly areas where Japanese garrisons outside of China were needed, the Philippines for example. However there were many other places where the Japanese were welcomed (at least initially) as liberators such as in the Dutch East Indies. The native populations strongly resented Dutch control and in Java and Sumatra the Japanese gave them a small measure of autonomy that gave the illusion of self-government.

So I would say that if you feel that the Japanese should need to garrison every base they conquer, I would say the Dutch should maintain garrisons at their bases also.

But that aside, the problem with requiring garrisons in WitP is that you don't have the smaller, rear-echelon forces available that performed this duty IRL. The Japanese didn't use front-line troops to garrison bases very often. Control in many areas was maintained by small security forces or by patrolling.

You don't always need an active force at every location to maintain control of an area. Just the threat of reprisal was often enough to keep trouble away.

Chez

[AmiralLaurent]

Well in fact WITP air model has several problems with reality:

_ a base or TF, or even group of TF will send usually a raid against a given target (except special coordination rules for US CV) with no problem due to different speed of the aircraft, or the ability to launch them all. While in reality gathering air units together and coordinating was time and fuel consuming, so reducing the range, and was difficult and often a failure, especially when various nation/commands were trying (or not) to work together.

_ from what is shown on the screen, 95% of the aircraft that take off for a raid find their target.... 50% will be good enough.

_ each unit on CAP will try to engage each attacking unit, sometimes several time, and usually succeed to engage at least half the time. In real life, a given formation was able to engage 1 or 2 enemy units, and often found nothing (even with radar in 1944-45).

_ escort fighters will always be engaged before bombers. In at least 3 cases on 4, the bombers were intercepted first and the escorts then came to the rescue and engaged the attackers.

_ bombing attacks on airfield will kill tens of AC on the ground, strafing attacks will cost many AC and destroy less than what you lost.... History was almost always the contrary, strafing attacks were the real AC killers on the ground.

_ medium bombers are less efficient than heavy ones. In fact their speed and manoeuvaribility allowed then to attack at low alt and score more hits than high-alt heavy bombers. They were the ones that sank ships, destroyed AC and closed airfields.

_ the ability to have reinforcement or replacement being generated on the frontline is grealty increasing the quantity of AC available.