Artillery and ships

[Catch21]

If your ships are in range and are firing on a coastal arty unit, it will perhaps understandably have an unfortunate tendency to fire back (consider it counter-battery fire). However if it is 'dug out' (i.e. in mobile status) I don't believe it can fire back defensively and certainly not offensively (only if in F, TR, LR, D or E status). One could argue that this represents the terrific pounding that Omaha fortifications received prior to the assault, perhaps contributing to the fact these ships were able to fire so close to shore as they did without getting hit.

If your naval units end the turn within range of coastal arty, expect the Germans to make them priority 'best bang for the Reichmark' (in fact really only) targets. Advice to Allies- calculate ranges of all German batteries prior to scenario start (I'm sure the Allies did on the day) and ensure your naval units are NEVER at risk.

JAMiAM: Thanks for response. "Low MP unit combat is improved. Zero MP units may now fire without using the entire turn." is what I recall reading. I think I'll test and revert with results.

[Curtis Lemay]

Counterbattery fire could use some improvement so that ranges are employed. So that Battleship firing from 7 hexes away would not receive counterbattery fire from the shore battery with a range of 2.

[Catch21]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Counterbattery fire could use some improvement so that ranges are employed. So that Battleship firing from 7 hexes away would not receive counterbattery fire from the shore battery with a range of 2.

My understanding always was that counter-battery fire does not extend out of equipment range, so I tested to prove using the Longues sur Mer CA Battery (63,27) with 4x150mm Fixed Gun (Range of 10 and AS Capability of 99 each (i.e. pretty effective AS)) and 1x122mm Gun (Range of 7 and AS Capability of 9) against Allied Naval Units firing at it beyond the 10 hex range in 2WIN.

First I set the toawlog switch so I will get a log of events. Then as Allied Player I moved anything that floated with range=13 to 23,16- just outside the 10 hex range of the German emplacement. Then just let rip with everything the assembled fleet has on Minimize Loss setting (i.e. only fire for one round max) round after round- for 9 rounds.

Attached is the resulting TOAWlog.txt file. It would appear that if a unit can't 'reach' the unit firing on it, it won't conduct counter-battery fire (in 9 rounds not a chirp from the German Battery in the toawlog), though in the detailed combat report it will state something like "German Army Coastal Arty, Longues sur Mer defends.".

I've got the scenario set up pre-Round 1 as an SAL file if anyone wants to double check but I'd suggest this plus a bunch of other empirical quick tests and observations over time is pretty conclusive.

[Ian R]

My understanding always was that counter-battery fire does not extend out of equipment range, so I tested to prove using the Longues sur Mer CA Battery (63,27) with 4x150mm Fixed Gun (Range of 10 and AS Capability of 99 each (i.e. pretty effective AS))

What effect would those 4 x [5.9" approx] have on, eg the Texas or the Warspite? If they blow them away in one round then there is still a problem.

[Catch21]

One could run a test in hotseat mode to see. I'd suggest both units would have trouble if they remained in range during the German player's turn. Don't forget also that they're groups comprising 1BB and escorts. The BB might be OK while the escorts take hits.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

What effect would those 4 x [5.9" approx] have on, eg the Texas or the Warspite? If they blow them away in one round then there is still a problem.

Well, because of the way AP fire and ships are handled, there is going to be a chance of a battleship being 'destroyed' by a 6" gun battery. However bear in mind that "destruction" in TOAW terms can mean a number of things. First, the ship might just go to replacements, in which case in such a short scenario it might be back in action in a matter of hours. Second, the ship might be out of action for the length of the scenario but, again, this can just mean it's laid up in drydock for a couple of weeks, or whatever. It doesn't have to mean the magazine exploded and the ship is now in little peices on the bottom of the Channel.

[Ian R]

I just can't imagine the captain of either of those BBs having much of a career if he withdrew after copping a 6" shell hit or 2 or 6 that maybe did some damage and maybe put some of the secondary battery out of action. Weren't the main turrets, magazines and fire control stations (well maybe not the latter) armoured so that even 12" would bounce at sufficient range?
 
If it happened to say 1 out of 6 BBs (I'm trying to remember which of the "R" battleships  was half towed into position with only part of its armament operating) you could wear that as a good salvo into the superstructure wreaking havoc on fire control, etc, but it sounds like its going to happen to each and every one of them.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I just can't imagine the captain of either of those BBs having much of a career if he withdrew after copping a 6" shell hit or 2 or 6 that maybe did some damage and maybe put some of the secondary battery out of action. Weren't the main turrets, magazines and fire control stations (well maybe not the latter) armoured so that even 12" would bounce at sufficient range?

So were the turrets of the British Battlecruisers at Jutland. Strange things can happen in war. Of course a battleship's absence for just part of one six hour turn (i.e. if it goes to replacements) could mean something as basic as it being suppressed or hit by smoke shells.

but it sounds like its going to happen to each and every one of them.

I dunno. You'd have to test it.

"Optimism can not overcome the laws of physics" - LtCdr Tu'vok

He's obviously never watched Star Trek

[Ian R]

"Optimism can not overcome the laws of physics" - LtCdr Tu'vok

He's obviously never watched Star Trek

Alas there is no TV in the 23rd Century. [:'(]

[Ian R]

Totally coincidentally I've got the history channel on and they were just interviewing a seaman from the Nelson who was describing how the BB was sitting off the beach firing on targets 20 miles inland, directed by a spotter plane.
 
It was on about Dday +3 though, so you would imagine the Coast guns are gone by then.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: General Staff
My understanding always was that counter-battery fire does not extend out of equipment range, ...

You're right. I violated my own axiom - stick to rigourous tests rather than messy gameplay observations.

[Catch21]

Just to put things in TOAW perspective using data from a real game, I recently finished playing Elmer as part of the 'New Player Workshop' over at WHQ or SZO or Xtreme Gamer (sorry, my head's starting to spin). The Allies (I played the Germans) had a delightful habit of leaving their naval assets just offshore or in beach hexes in full range of Coastal Batteries.

Over the course of 13 turns representing 2 weeks and with firing almost every turn and sometimes for several rounds, we managed to destroy 1 Battleship, 7 Cruisers and 15 Destroyers- so I'd suggest those BBs are fairly invulnerable in TOAW to CA fire. And as GD points out, that could mean just a lay-up in a dry dock for a couple of weeks.

IMO any reasonable Allied player will always keep his ships out of range of these CA Batteries- even intra-turn in case it ends unexpectedly- and make clearing them a top priority for ground troops just as it was on the day.