War cycle every 110 - 150 years

[sven]

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
Since ALL wars (except for some liberations which are really the minority) are fought NOT for the greater glory of mankind but for rather the very precisely specified goals of some people in the elite.

Manifestly untrue. But then again what can you expect from a product of the materialist school of history......

quite right old bean....for a bunch of collectivists they certainly were wrapped up in wealth theory.

[Zap]

For sure, it has been said by some 2012 is the end. And they would bet your life on it.

[Twotribes]

The only dumb war is the one you lose. War is simply an extension of the body politic. So it is hard to completely leave politics out of a discussion ABOUT war.

War is not obsolete. That would require that NO ONE on the planet would ever resort to it. Our ( I am american) European cousins that believe so need only look a short distance away for a VERY large segment of the world population that not only believes in war but believes anyone that doesnt follow their beliefs are cattle. To be used and killed at the whim of the believers.

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
Since ALL wars (except for some liberations which are really the minority) are fought NOT for the greater glory of mankind but for rather the very precisely specified goals of some people in the elite.

Manifestly untrue. But then again what can you expect from a product of the materialist school of history......

Could you define a REASON whcih would make ALL or most wars UNDUMB?

[Culiacan Mexico]

ORIGINAL: Grey Hunter


theres such thing as a "smart" war? they all look pritty dumb to me.

In 873, the Longobard duke of Salerno raided the territories on Italy's tip. When he withdrew, the lands had no human beings left.

Procopius


Some successfully fought and resisted the Longobards... Ravenna for one. The belief that this was dumb on their part to fight, doesn't seem to be validated by history.

[sven]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior


Could you define a REASON whcih would make ALL or most wars UNDUMB?

because it is seldom "dumb" to resist the darling niceities that "cultural diplomats" like Genghis Khan, Darth Shicklegruber, and Napoleon have in mind for national policy in your nation......

some people require pyrotechnic rebuttals to the evil they hold in their heart for you.

Just the way it is, now go buy the world a coke and teach it harmony or something.

[Rune Iversen]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior


Could you define a REASON whcih would make ALL or most wars UNDUMB?

Non Sequitur [:-]

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: sven

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
Could you define a REASON whcih would make ALL or most wars UNDUMB?

because it is seldom "dumb" to resist the darling niceities that "cultural diplomats" like Genghis Khan, Darth Shicklegruber, and Napoleon have in mind for national policy in your nation......

some people require pyrotechnic rebuttals to the evil they hold in their heart for you.

Just the way it is, now go buy the world a coke and teach it harmony or something.

Well Mr. Khan and Dolfi, not to mention Bonie were famous for asking permission to wage wars.[;)] They are the prime example that wars are fought on the expense of many for the advantage of very few. That is the way it is. Sad but it is so.

[Knuckles_85]

What does that have to do with the conversation. Can you please the Steakhouse out your comments? Not unless you want some company over here [8D]

[Rune Iversen]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
Well Mr. Khan and Dolfi, not to mention Bonie were famous for asking permission to wage wars.[;)] They are the prime example that wars are fought on the expense of many for the advantage of very few. That is the way it is. Sad but it is so.

Genghis Khans wars were robbery and plundering on an international scale with the spoils being split between the entire mongol male population and both Nappy and Adolf were running utopian and revolutionist schemes (also racist as regards Adolf) with the goal being the conversion and subversion of entire populations. You are simply wrong. Forget what you learned prior to 1989 since it simply doesn´t wash.

(My highlights)

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen
You are simply wrong. Forget what you learned prior to 1989 since it simply doesn´t wash.

Dont tell me that the commies were lying! You must have clairvoyance!

Irony apart could you quote me some just wars -fought by an army on foreign soil -apart from WWII, Korea, Vietnam and Desert Storm(which were defensive wars to defeat a greater evil) ? All this in cca 5000 years of warfare?

[Twotribes]

Iraq is a JUST war. Saddam Hussein signed a cease fire AFTER he start6ed a war. He failed utterly for 12 years to live up to it. That ALONE makes it just. Add in that with him still in power and sanctions lifted ( thanks to certain nations which shall remain nameless) he would have returned to mass production of chemical and Biological weapons, he would have returned to working on the nuclear weapon he wanted and he would have been free to rearm, reequip and make overtures to any and all terrorist groups to further his desire to punish the USA.

But hey thats just me, you go ahead and support a mass murderer that routinely slaughtered his neighbors and his own people. THAT is historical FACT, no fiction, no conspiracy at all.

Iraq WAS defensive in nature. We had a choice, wait till Saddam was ready to strike and hope we could retaliate ( given the response from certain people and Countries on 9/11 it is doubtful EVEN that would have satisfied some Countries)after who knows how many were killed by one of his weapons. OR go in when he absolutely refused to comply with his own agreements that ended the shooting war 12 years before.

Grenada was another justified action. As was Panama. I must assume that you are/were opposed to the offensive action France took a couple years ago against the Ivory Coast ( I believe thats the country) when they machine gunned a large crowd of unarmed civilians in retaliation for a bomb being dropped on their compound as supposed "peace keepers"?

You must have been opposed to Bosnia intervention, Kosovo too? Any action taken against Serbia of course, according to you was a "bad" deal also right?

How about Afghanistan? That Government REFUSED to kick out or turn over a known criminal, mass murderer. Was that too an "unjust war?"

I am surprised you mentioned Viet Nam. Unless of course you supported the North? The same thing that happened to South Viet Nam is now being tried on a free and independent Iraq, by the same crowd.

As for WW2, If only the US had just sold metal and oil to Japan, we never would have been attacked at all and would have had no "right" to fight in Europe or the Pacific, according to your criteria.

Same with WW1, except for as dubious claim of Germany attacking civilian ships ( which of course WERE carrying war supplies) the US had no buisiness in that European war. And Korea? Why that was simply the North trying to reunite the Country, and we stuck our noses where it didnt belong, using your logic anyway.

And Desert Storm? Please? We had no business there either... I mean why was it our business if Iraq swallowed up Kuwait and threatened Saudia Arabia and the other small Gulf Countries? We had no "moral" right to oppose Iraq after all. That war was ALL about Oil.

Countries wage war because of Politics. They want something or feel threatened. No other reason. By your definition, NO war EVER is justified, not even if your the defender. Better to simply surrender and hope the aggressor is humane.

[Rune Iversen]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Dont tell me that the commies were lying! You must have clairvoyance!

Irony apart could you quote me some just wars -fought by an army on foreign soil -apart from WWII, Korea, Vietnam and Desert Storm(which were defensive wars to defeat a greater evil) ? All this in cca 5000 years of warfare?

Heh...

Most of the wars Rome fought were considered "just" according to Roman jurisprudence.

And I have to call non sequitur. Again......

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen
Heh...

Most of the wars Rome fought were considered "just" according to Roman jurisprudence.

You know a "legal" justification is like an excuse which is like an arse. Everybody has one.

And I have to call non sequitur. Again......

Well I accept that you follow the realist school of politics (aka nations act on their national interests), but dont expect EVERYBODY to buy the sales speech escorting it. IF all speeches of freedom, liberty, anti-radicalism and stuff were true neither Musarraf, nor the Saudi family along with the Gulf monarchies should be in their place.

[Rune Iversen]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

You know a "legal" justification is like an excuse which is like an arse. Everybody has one.

[:-]
In that case you should not try to use the term "just" as a parameter. It is not very logical to denounce the point of ones last post in the very next one

Well I accept that you follow the realist school of politics (aka nations act on their national interests), but dont expect EVERYBODY to buy the sales speech escorting it. IF all speeches of freedom, liberty, anti-radicalism and stuff were true neither Musarraf, nor the Saudi family along with the Gulf monarchies should be in their place.

Strawman [:-]

You will have to move beyond your narrow contemporary vision if this is to go anywhere. Yes, you can make the above points on the current situation, but when viewed against the historical record your points fall flat.

[Ursa MAior]

What a conversation! What a list of arguments! I am amazed!

It was fun a fun discussion.


Bye.

[dinsdale]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
Irony apart could you quote me some just wars -fought by an army on foreign soil -apart from WWII, Korea, Vietnam and Desert Storm(which were defensive wars to defeat a greater evil) ? All this in cca 5000 years of warfare?

Obviously the Soviet intervention in Hungary should spring to mind. An elite uprising based on economic benefit to themselves were crushed before they could potentially lead Hungary to it's third unprovoked invasion of Russia in less than 50 years.

Of course, that's strictly using your own rules for what you consider "just" wars, though I doubt it's what you had in mind when you hastily attempted to make your subjective definition an objective one.

[Rune Iversen]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

What a conversation! What a list of arguments! I am amazed!

It was fun a fun discussion.


Bye.

The honor is all mine [8D]

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: dinsdale
Obviously the Soviet intervention in Hungary should spring to mind. An elite uprising based on economic benefit to themselves were crushed before they could potentially lead Hungary to it's third unprovoked invasion of Russia in less than 50 years.

Do you EVEN realize what you are talking about? Elite uprising? Economic benefit? Third invasion in 50 years? You must be mistaking us with someone else.
While joining the 1941 attack on the USSR was not a wise step since no allied power offered ANY chance to reevaluate the completely unjust Trianon Treaty, Hungary had no choice but to join the axis.

I thought there is no intellectual level below the MCS crews'. You have proven that there is.

[Rune Iversen]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
Hungary had no choice but to join the axis.

Verifyably wrong.